MMA  > General MMA  > Is wrestling killing MMA?
August 12, 2010, 04:21 PM
http://sportsnickel.com/2010/08/12/in-the-clinch-taking-the -martial-arts-out-of-mma/


That's what I think about it.

(probably gonna have to delete the spaces)
August 12, 2010  04:40 PM ET

That's an old topic... and one I cant agree with you.

You say that Sonnen would have won would be wrong? he dominated Silva for 23 minutes. OK, let's say 22 minutes as 20-30 seconds of each round Silva hit Sonnen.
But so what?
Discount the takedowns. Who was at the top hitting (feather hiots or not, Silva was not doing even that).

Attacking wrestlers for taking people down is the same as attacking a BB in BJJ for applying a submition.

This is MMA. All arts are welcome. when people want to take one only because it is currently dominating is when I say THEY don't like MMA to be MMA.

Comment #3 has been removed
August 12, 2010  07:33 PM ET
QUOTE:

I'm pretty sure you missed the point of the article, if you even read it.Like I said, wrestling isn't bad. Not doing anything with the wrestling is bad.

apparently I missed the point then.
Specially when you noted:


"Sonnen took Silva down at will, but really didn???t do any damage to the middleweight champion. The fight was boring by all accounts"

"Fighter A and controls him on the ground, peppering him with feather punches"

"Wrestlers have too distinct of an advantage in the way the fight is scored. This isn???t wrestling. This is Mixed Martial Arts. But the way it???s scored, wrestling is taking the ???martial arts??? out of Mixed Martial Arts. "

"The point is wrestlers are exploiting a broken system and it needs to be fixed. Now. The fans, and the opponents of these wrestlers, are getting the raw end of the deal. These fights become boring and stagnant, something I???m sure Dana White doesn???t want to be the norm."


Apparently I did miss the point. because it sounds like you don't like wrestling.
You called it boring and noted wrestlers are awarded unfair points when they take people down and stay on top hitting them with feather hits.

You claim then that the fight becomes boring and stagnant and that this is bad for MMA. Does this sound about right?
The why don't you go watch fake-wrestling? It seems it suits your need more...
The storylines are better, you always have more "action", and even almost-naked women. Everything to avoid you feeling bored.

Me, on the other hand, don't care if the fight is a technical battle on the ground. Even dry-humping Guida. To me what counts is that this wrestler is imposing his will.
To me, this is a wave that NOW is getting popular, much like BJJ got popular when Gracie dominated the sport. (did you call then BJJ Boring as everyone was being submited by it?).

What happens is that more and more fighters will simply have to adapt and learn TDD to the T in ordewr to stop said wrestlers. And then things will go back to normal.

What can't happen is people like you who has ADD and are bored easily to guide how MMA should exist and what is allowed or not in the octagon just because you like it or not...

August 12, 2010  07:53 PM ET

Good read Bob.

Comment #7 has been removed
August 12, 2010  08:52 PM ET
QUOTE(#7):

So, you think it's okay to not try to advance towards a finish? I don't think that anyone has an issue with takedowns and wrestling per se; it's the failure of certain fighters to try to finish a fight that is at issue.

Look, if the fighter just lay there, the rule is to stand them up.

I disagree with the notion that either a wrestler finnish a guy or he is stalling.
GSP is never stood up by referees. neither is guys like Sonnen or Guida. And yet people complain their fights are boring. but they are constantly attacking.

it would be the same as saying that a puncher is stalling if he does not KTFO his opponent.

I do agree that some fighters made a science to simply take people down and then allow them to get up again just to take them down once more.
But isn't it the same when a fighter learns that their right hook hits the target every time and so they keep doing it over and over?

You do what you have success with. The challenge is on the other guy to stop it, or find a way to turn the tables on his opponent.

August 12, 2010  10:34 PM ET

I think the key thing is improving position. GSP is constantly attempting to improve position once on the ground to work towards a sub or a better position for GNP. What Chael did was take Silva down and pepper him in his guard the whole time. He rarely tried to advance his position.

August 12, 2010  11:10 PM ET
QUOTE(#9):

I think the key thing is improving position. GSP is constantly attempting to improve position once on the ground to work towards a sub or a better position for GNP. What Chael did was take Silva down and pepper him in his guard the whole time. He rarely tried to advance his position.

yes, true, but isn't it the same as 2 fighters standing throwing jabs?
Not every fighter throws only bombs with abandon like Leonard Garcia & Chan-Sung.
And while it is much more exciting see that fight, you can't obligate everyone to fight only exciting styles.

look, what I am saying is not that you have to like it.
But MMA is not supposed to be only a show. It is a fight. And some fights are beautifull and some are ugly.

The better fighter is not always the most exciting. Actually it is generally the opposite.
And that goes for most sports! The most effective is not the most exciting.

And if you want the sport to be true to itself, then you can't always demand a show.

August 13, 2010  01:37 AM ET
QUOTE:

http://sportsnickel.com/2010/08/12/in-the-clinch-taking-the -martial-arts-out-of-mma/That's what I think about it.(probably gonna have to delete the spaces)

You should be using tinyurl.com, Menn.

Check it out.
You'll draw a lot more views to your articles as it will fix up all the links.

August 13, 2010  08:54 AM ET
QUOTE(#11):

You should be using tinyurl.com, Menn.Check it out. You'll draw a lot more views to your articles as it will fix up all the links.

Good idea Yoda.

Here Menn, I did it for you this time:

http://tinyurl.com/2b5jb73

August 13, 2010  09:44 AM ET

I don't think wrestling is killing MMA at all. I think the rules are going to be what kills it eventually. If they would change the rules you wouldn't have so many lay and pray guys like Rashad!!! You can't fault the fighters for implementing game plans of lots of take downs and lay in the guard until the ref decides to stand them up and then repeat the process. They know that will win fights, so why not do it?

August 13, 2010  10:01 AM ET

Fighters need to gamplan better and train their sprawls and striking as well as defensive guard work.

MMA judges are still willing to score fights in favor of a bottom fighter if he attacks effectively from the bottom and/or does serious damage standing.

For instance, Michael Bisping thought he would lay and pray his way to a decision against Wanderlei Silva. Wanderlei used several guillotines and effective, but short, flurries of striking. Althought Mike was in control for more of the fight than Wanderlei was, the judges were happy to reward the effective striking, grappling and aggression of Wanderlei over the takedowns of Bisping.

Unfortunately, that is not the norm. The rules don't need to change, at least not yet, but the judges need to be more well educated as to what they are watching. The judges in Sydney did everything right for that fight, but many Athletic Commissions in the US would have awarded the W to "The Count".

August 13, 2010  10:18 AM ET
QUOTE(#7):

So, you think it's okay to not try to advance towards a finish? I don't think that anyone has an issue with takedowns and wrestling per se; it's the failure of certain fighters to try to finish a fight that is at issue.

Yes, when they don't try to finish it can become very boring...but the point is moot because that wrestler would still win. You can't award points to a guy being held on his back and doing nothing....

It's seldom we see a GREAT fight where the bottom person gets the best of the wrestler on top. In Cerone vs Hendosen I Cerone held the bottom spot for most of the fight yet IMO he dominated it. He was throwing SUBS left and right, he was catching Ben with good upkicks, hell, in the last round he dropped Ben with a well placed kick....

In Mousasi v King Mo it was King Mo who had a hamburger face at the end of the fight.

August 13, 2010  10:20 AM ET
QUOTE(#9):

I think the key thing is improving position. GSP is constantly attempting to improve position once on the ground to work towards a sub or a better position for GNP. What Chael did was take Silva down and pepper him in his guard the whole time. He rarely tried to advance his position.

Seriously..... Sonnen beat his **** for nearly 5 rounds and he caught him while they stood two times (though one was a glancing blow). That fight was far from boring so that was a bad example my friend.

August 13, 2010  10:21 AM ET
QUOTE(#10):

yes, true, but isn't it the same as 2 fighters standing throwing jabs? Not every fighter throws only bombs with abandon like Leonard Garcia & Chan-Sung.And while it is much more exciting see that fight, you can't obligate everyone to fight only exciting styles.look, what I am saying is not that you have to like it.But MMA is not supposed to be only a show. It is a fight. And some fights are beautifull and some are ugly.The better fighter is not always the most exciting. Actually it is generally the opposite.And that goes for most sports! The most effective is not the most exciting.And if you want the sport to be true to itself, then you can't always demand a show.

Yep, because most exciting is based on the RISK that some fighters take when they abandon smart gameplans and throw caution to the wind....hence the Garcia fight.

August 13, 2010  10:23 AM ET
QUOTE(#14):

Fighters need to gamplan better and train their sprawls and striking as well as defensive guard work.MMA judges are still willing to score fights in favor of a bottom fighter if he attacks effectively from the bottom and/or does serious damage standing. For instance, Michael Bisping thought he would lay and pray his way to a decision against Wanderlei Silva. Wanderlei used several guillotines and effective, but short, flurries of striking. Althought Mike was in control for more of the fight than Wanderlei was, the judges were happy to reward the effective striking, grappling and aggression of Wanderlei over the takedowns of Bisping.Unfortunately, that is not the norm. The rules don't need to change, at least not yet, but the judges need to be more well educated as to what they are watching. The judges in Sydney did everything right for that fight, but many Athletic Commissions in the US would have awarded the W to "The Count".

See Hendosen v Cerone 1!

August 13, 2010  10:25 AM ET

I find it funny that people simply forget about Chuck. He had legendary TDD. And this is why he was able to force most guys to stand & bang with him.
If fighters don't want to be taken down, they should learn a page from the iceman.

If people don't like what they see, they can change channels. This is not WWE where you can script what we would like to see.
I find it funny that people say they love MMA but don't want it to be free form.

August 13, 2010  10:26 AM ET
QUOTE(#14):

Fighters need to gamplan better and train their sprawls and striking as well as defensive guard work.MMA judges are still willing to score fights in favor of a bottom fighter if he attacks effectively from the bottom and/or does serious damage standing. For instance, Michael Bisping thought he would lay and pray his way to a decision against Wanderlei Silva. Wanderlei used several guillotines and effective, but short, flurries of striking. Althought Mike was in control for more of the fight than Wanderlei was, the judges were happy to reward the effective striking, grappling and aggression of Wanderlei over the takedowns of Bisping.Unfortunately, that is not the norm. The rules don't need to change, at least not yet, but the judges need to be more well educated as to what they are watching. The judges in Sydney did everything right for that fight, but many Athletic Commissions in the US would have awarded the W to "The Count".

I agree 100000% with C on this.

August 13, 2010  10:33 AM ET
QUOTE(#19):

I find it funny that people simply forget about Chuck. He had legendary TDD. And this is why he was able to force most guys to stand & bang with him.If fighters don't want to be taken down, they should learn a page from the iceman.If people don't like what they see, they can change channels. This is not WWE where you can script what we would like to see.I find it funny that people say they love MMA but don't want it to be free form.

If thats the case allow BJJ guys to wear their Gi's.....

 
August 13, 2010  10:45 AM ET
QUOTE(#19):

I find it funny that people simply forget about Chuck. He had legendary TDD. And this is why he was able to force most guys to stand & bang with him.If fighters don't want to be taken down, they should learn a page from the iceman.If people don't like what they see, they can change channels. This is not WWE where you can script what we would like to see.I find it funny that people say they love MMA but don't want it to be free form.

That was in a different time.

You say if people don't like what they see they can turn the channel, well if they do that then where does the sport of MMA go? You turn away the viewers/fans then you have a sport that will crumble. Not a smart buisness move, but hey what do I know..... People tune in to see exciting fights, not wrestling matches. You say guys should learn better TDD, well i am sorry to inform you but when a great wrestler wants to take you down he will take you down. Not only that but he will push you against the cage and control the fight and win the match by doing nothing but holding you against the cage.... Take the Randy/Vera fight as an example of that.


While its great in theory, it just isn't that easy to do. And by the look of things with the great influx of wrestling guys coming into MMA and winning alot of Dec victories its only going to get worse.

Also to battle your theory of getting better TDD, why would a Jui Jitsu guy want to defend the takedown. They want you in their guard and are very comfortable being on the bottom for the match. So does that mean they should be penalized for allowing the takedown or being on the bottom during the match? The answer is no, but as the rules are now they are being double penalized for it. They lose points for being takendown and then lose points for being controlled on the ground even though that is exactly where they want to be.

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