MMA  > General MMA  > Cole Miller speaks out on non finishers
September 3, 2010, 09:36 PM
Quote of the Day: Cole Miller Is Not a Fan of Frankie Edgar

U-faber_tiny by Nick Thomas on Sep 3, 2010 8:51 PM EDT in UFC News Comment 19 comments

"People finishing fights is a big topic right now and that???s how I fight. You look at Frankie in both fights with B.J. (Penn) and it seems that no one wants to fight right now. Fans see these guys like (Frankie) Edgar or these other bouncy wrestler types and fans are like "oh, he fights you everywhere," when in reality they don???t fight you anywhere. They just want to hit you three or four times, shoot in for a takedown, stay on the ground for a minute or so then get back up. They want to wear you down because they don???t want to fight you on the ground either."

"It???s great to be in shape but these guys are surviving and that???s not what martial arts is about. ... How can you back a guy who is just surviving and running away? These wrestlers are just trying to take you out of your game because all that apparently matters anymore is the takedown. ... These guys can keep getting their hands raised for now and they can keep "shooting for the win" ...but the time is coming man. If it was me, I???d feel shameful if I didn???t do all I could to finish. I feel shamed for them when I watch it happen. Score your points boys, don???t worry about putting anybody out or finishing a fight, just score your points. Look at guys like Martin Kampmann, Nate Diaz, Nick Diaz, Nate Marquardt, Miguel Torres and B.J. Penn. All of these guys are out there and they are looking to put people out and doing their thing; hell even Demian Maia is starting to put guys out."
Comment #1 has been removed
September 4, 2010  10:21 AM ET

I def agree with you and Cole. I can appreciate implementing a good game plan and dominating someone but it gets pretty old, from a spectators point of view. I def think guys like him and GSP need to take more chances and get back to fighting the way they did to get to there

September 4, 2010  02:58 PM ET

Well I happen to agree with both sides.

yes, on a personal level, i would Love to see finnishes on every fight. I would love to see the full card on PPV because the fights are so fast.

but the reality is that this is a sport. No matter how many rules you change, no matter if you use the 10 points system or the Pride rules, these fighters are professional, and at the end of the day, winning is what matters.

Just look at guys who are browlers. If they lose enough, they get cut.
So It is my humble opinion that both UFC and the public are being unfair and ridiculously blind towards the fighters.
Because on one hand they complain, but on the other as a sport, it matters little if you went down blasting all guns and ultimately lost your fight.

Just to pick on you, Jim, I disagree with the assessment that BJ is a finnisher. he CAN finnish people. but like he just showed on the last 2 fights, he simply didn't have the drive to attack and finnish the fight.
it is also my humble hater opinion that BJ could have ended the fight if he only wished. and the frustrating part is that his knowledge of this fact is what made him not attack and end with frankie.


But let me ask you one question for everyone here to reflect while answering this question: what would you think of GSP if he would have continued fighting like he did against Serra II if he would have now on his resume 3-4 more losses due to KO while trying to fight someone in a non-boring way???

if he was not your champ for so long, would you respect him as much? I don't think so.

September 6, 2010  05:57 AM ET

Cole is absolutely right. And more and more people are starting to say the same.

No one wants to watch fights where a guy wins just because of positional advantage. That is making many people lose interest in MMA.

It's all about the incentives.

Look at the Minotauro vs Ricco Rodriguez fight.

Ricco decided to get the takedowns and then lay 'n pray.

He spent almost the entire fight on Minotauro's closed guard, while Nogueira tried some submissions he couldn't pull off.

Because of the way fights were scored in PRIDE the judges saw that Minotauro was, at least, trying to finish the fight, while Ricco wasn't, and awarded Nogueira the win.

That's how it is supposed to be.

MMA fights are just that... fights. They are not wrestling matches where you win by pin.

And I won't even mention yellow cards.

Comment #5 has been removed
September 7, 2010  09:02 AM ET

Why are you guys ignoring my question?
Would you put GSP on top of your P4P if he was more active on his standup and had more losses as a result?
And I know the answer. No.

You guys are letting your feelings talk, but are being blatantly unfair since you would not respect more a guy that does what you are asking.

Just look at Leonard Garcia. If that was the case, wouldn't him be at the top, one of the most valuable fighter?

Yes, as a wish, i would like us to be back at the roman times, with the coliseum and only one guy standing every fight.
But that is not what MMA (the sport) is about.there are rules, and they have to find a way to win... as in ANY other sport.

Comment #7 has been removed
Comment #8 has been removed
September 7, 2010  02:46 PM ET
QUOTE(#8):

No, but Id have more respect for him. MMA should be about finishing your opponent and at least trying to finish your opponent, not avoiding and trying to outpoint your opponent.

again, personally I agree with you.
but the reality of the matter is one and one only: Leonard garcia does NOT make more than any other (boring) fighter who wins all his fights. Look at how much those guys make.


at the end of the day, the win is more important, and the demans the fans have are seriously wrong.
In every sport there's the same debate. Play beautifull or play ugly but effective?
And most invariably, the ones with the ring are the ones who play to win. Unfair? I think so. but like I said, no one would consider GSP a P4P king if he stood up and had 3-4 more losses due to that.

Comment #10 has been removed
September 7, 2010  03:51 PM ET
QUOTE(#10):

Its not the job of the fighter to change his style. Its the job of the ref and judges to fix the issue. A fighter is laying n praying stand them up as a ref. The judges take points away for stalling. That will change how fighters fight.

how will you define though?
I mean, say what you will, Frankie was dancing around and all, but he was twice as active as BJ... would you deduct a point from BJ?

who's tyo say what is stalling? This is just too subjective.

Comment #12 has been removed
Comment #13 has been removed
September 7, 2010  04:00 PM ET
QUOTE(#12):

Judging is subjective.

true.... and you want MORE of the errors we encounter because of this "subjectivity"?

Comment #15 has been removed
September 7, 2010  04:08 PM ET
QUOTE(#13):

The commission really needs to train NEW judges on what to look for when scoring an MMA fight. Get rid of the idiot judges who have been judging boxing for years. A guy dances around for a round, score it 10-10. I guy lay n prays for a full round. Score it 10-10. A ref sees a guy laying and praying, stand the fight up immediately. If you do not improve position or try to end a fight you should not be rewarded. If its not fixed soon, then all we'll see is boring wrestling matches. I dont think you want to see that.

again, this has nothing to do with what i want or not.

I just don't see how or why i should help the other fighter.
A guy dances around for a round
I agree. But take Frankie & BJ for example. Why shouldn't we punnish BJ for not engaging Frankie? What's up with that? So "dancing" and being elusive is bad, yet not doing ANYTHING to corner the other fighter against the cage and kick his arse is ok?

guy lay n prays for a full round
I agree it's bad. but what about the guy at the bottom? so you are at the bottom and all of a sudden the referee needs to save your arse because you can't get up?

All in all, it takes 2 to tango. But it takes ONE GUY to have a fight or a KO.
Just ask Silva! Sonnen proved that to be true.
Silva danced around Maia, Leites, etc. Did Sonnen need any help to make Silva fight? no.

I disagree with you guys on this. the more I think, the more I am convinced you guys have bad/wrong expectations and this is just because YOUR fighter did even less than the other. Now you want the rules to help your guy!
I disagree.

this is a fight to see which style/fighter has the better gameplan. The win is awarded in any fashion other than the last guy standing, you will always see people using the rules to help them win.
The loser's cry is always to blame the style, to blame the referee, the judges, etc. Why couldn't him be more aggressive and obligate the opponent to fight is what I have to ask.

September 7, 2010  04:10 PM ET
QUOTE(#15):

I want to see better fights.

same here. but they can't be all exciting.
You said yourself. this is all about style. Would you want to see Randy standing up and trading punches against Toney? Did you really expect it to happen?

My point exactly.

September 7, 2010  04:50 PM ET
QUOTE(#6):

Why are you guys ignoring my question?Would you put GSP on top of your P4P if he was more active on his standup and had more losses as a result?And I know the answer. No.You guys are letting your feelings talk, but are being blatantly unfair since you would not respect more a guy that does what you are asking.Just look at Leonard Garcia. If that was the case, wouldn't him be at the top, one of the most valuable fighter?Yes, as a wish, i would like us to be back at the roman times, with the coliseum and only one guy standing every fight. But that is not what MMA (the sport) is about.there are rules, and they have to find a way to win... as in ANY other sport.

If I were GSP (or Fitch, or Rashad, for that matter) I would probably lay 'n pray too, because I would know that would guarantee me a win, paychecks and championships.

I obviously understand why they do it.

That doesn't mean everything is right with the sport right now. Because it obviously isn't.

September 7, 2010  04:54 PM ET

I am sorry if I am going to offend some USA citizens but it is obvious that one of the reasons why the rules of MMA in the USA haven't been revised yet is because the rules blatantly give an advantage for wrestlers.

 
September 7, 2010  04:59 PM ET
QUOTE(#16):

the more I think, the more I am convinced you guys have bad/wrong expectations and this is just because YOUR fighter did even less than the other. Now you want the rules to help your guy!I disagree.this is a fight to see which style/fighter has the better gameplan.

Have you ever thought that maybe it's the other way around?

I want the rules to be changed - and the way fights are scored - to take away the current unfair advantage wrestlers have.

Because, as it is right now, you can be sure that Rashad is going to take Shogun down and lay on him on the way to the championship. And Sonnen is going to do the same to the Spider in their rematch.

And, lo and behold, 5 wrestlers (or guys that mainly use wrestling) as UFC champs.

And we all know that King Mo only lost his belt because he decided not to wrestle. He could have done to Feijao what he did to Mousasi (let's also remember that Mo's face was a mess at the end of the Mousasi fight, while Gegard's wasn't).

Even I, as a die-hard MMA fan, am getting turned off by the laying 'n praying in US fights.

Especially because even rules in Brazil, Europe and Japan are rules much more fit for MMA fights, than the current rules/ judging criteria in the US.

I don't want to watch NCAA fights disguised as MMA fights and it's obvious that the big majority of fans don't want that either.

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