NCAAF  > General NCAAF  > USC appeal
May 5, 2011, 01:47 PM
The NCAA apears to be moving very slowly in its final decision on the USC appeal. I have a hunch the Trojans may get some concessions.
May 5, 2011  02:03 PM ET

I think they are testing the waters right now. Basically seeing what's gonna come down on Mr. sweatervest and TOSU. If they are hit heavy, no change will be necessary; But if TOSU get's off with a 5 game suspension, then it looks awfully lopsided (as if it doesn't already) for USC to suffer the penalties they got. The discrepncy will be hard to explain, especially since (I believe) TOSU is a repeat offender,

Originally I think they were so harsh for 2 reasons:
1. USC defied them by not admitting guilt and not handing out the evidence necessary to hang themselves (NCAA doesn't recognize the 5th amendment).
2. They wanted to make an example, as they did with SMU, to 'scare' everyone into compliance.

Problem is, they backed themselves into a corner. They didn't scare anyone. Now the cases involving other big programs puts them in a bad position: for USC's relatively light infraction they gave a penalty so stiff that worse infractions would warrant the death penalty by comparison. But they have already violated that precedent in cases like UCONN. Now the snowballs gathering steam and they gotta get out of it's way, but do they go left or right?

One other thing; NCAA appeals committee upheld sanctions against Todd Mcnair. Whether or not this means anything to USC'S appeal IDK.

Comment #2 has been removed
May 5, 2011  02:58 PM ET
QUOTE(#2):

Are the people deciding on USCw's appeal different from the people deciding on tOSU's fate?

Pretty sure yes. However, the two committees may compare notes or be working from some set of internal NCAA guidelines.

May 5, 2011  03:05 PM ET
QUOTE(#1):

USC's relatively light infraction they gave a penalty so stiff that worse infractions would warrant the death penalty by comparison.

Not sure how USC's infractions can be characterized as light.

Bush was clearly in violation of NCAA rules and the dollar value was significant.

The NCAA found that McNair knew what was going on with Bush and failed to report it; therefore, the school was culpable. (whether the NCAA finding was factually correct is irrelevant in the appeals process.)

Go given those two items, I don't see how how you get to light infraction.

May 5, 2011  03:15 PM ET
QUOTE:

The NCAA apears to be moving very slowly in its final decision on the USC appeal. I have a hunch the Trojans may get some concessions.

I think the 2 year bowl ban will stay. The NCAA has already ruled that McnNair is screwed. But I think there may be some relief in the scholarship reductions. It depends on how USC argued their case and also on the NCAA's mood.

May 5, 2011  04:29 PM ET
QUOTE(#5):

It depends on how USC argued their case and also on the NCAA's mood.

LK ought to send a case of Midol over to the NCAA offices, just as a friendly gesture.





...or no...?

May 5, 2011  04:48 PM ET
QUOTE(#1):

Now the cases involving other big programs puts them in a bad position: for USC's relatively light infraction they gave a penalty so stiff that worse infractions would warrant the death penalty by comparison.

What USC did was worse than what Alabama did in the Albert Means case and Alabama got over 20 scholarships taken away.

May 5, 2011  05:37 PM ET

Has Reggie received a lot of hate mail because of all this? He must be feeling so sad ashamed right now. Oh the poor fella.

May 5, 2011  07:08 PM ET

<smacks forehead>

May 6, 2011  07:00 AM ET
QUOTE(#1):

Originally I think they were so harsh for 2 reasons: 1. USC defied them by not admitting guilt and not handing out the evidence necessary to hang themselves (NCAA doesn't recognize the 5th amendment).2. They wanted to make an example, as they did with SMU, to 'scare' everyone into compliance.

It did not help that USC hired what amounted to NCAA version of "Public Enemy #1" Lane Kiffin right in the middle of the investigation. That was a huge middle finger to the NCAA.

May 6, 2011  12:18 PM ET

In response to JoeKidd's assertion that what USC did was worse than what Alabama did to lose 20 scholarships, first of all USC is being punished for not knowing that Reggie's parents were living rent free and when Alabama was recruiting Albert Means one of Mean's HS coaches let Bama know that it would take $300,000 to get him to sign and they paid it, the dollar figures are about the same but the fact that Alabama paid the guy themselves is much worse IMHO

May 6, 2011  02:06 PM ET
QUOTE(#4):

Not sure how USC's infractions can be characterized as light.Bush was clearly in violation of NCAA rules and the dollar value was significant.The NCAA found that McNair knew what was going on with Bush and failed to report it; therefore, the school was culpable. (whether the NCAA finding was factually correct is irrelevant in the appeals process.)Go given those two items, I don't see how how you get to light infraction.

1 guy, no REAL PROOF (only convicted felon LL's word about a phone call) that anyone in the school had knowledge, and according to NCAA's own findings only a RB coach, Todd Mcnair, had knowledge, and then only after Reggie was done playing, and the coach was let go.

I don't think the dollar amount is relevant, but who knows. Compare it to TOSU (I did say relatively light didn't I): 5 players involved, Head Coach knows waaaaaaaaaaaaay before the season starts, participates in a cover up, lies repeatedly to the NCAA, AND MOST OF ALL THE SCHOOL HAS NOT FIRED HIM!

So relatively (in comparison to another) the infraction was light. The only thing that is 'worse' about USC violations is the $ amount that Reggie got. Also, compare the findings in the recent UCONN case, which had worse infractions yet got away with a slap on the wrist. 3 game coach suspension, 1 scholly restriction for 3 years, but this is Basketball with smaller squads. but more importantly, NO POST SEASON BAN!

And whether or not this finding or that finding happened in the original, the public perception matters. And many think USCs punishment was undully harsh.

May 6, 2011  02:23 PM ET
QUOTE(#7):

What USC did was worse than what Alabama did in the Albert Means case and Alabama got over 20 scholarships taken away.

Anyone else's infraction is always worse in a fan's eyes. I still say it involved only 1 player and the school (Todd Mcnair) was only involved as a corner case. Also, assuming USC's infraction was worse, so was the penalty (30 scholly reduction).

But I will admit I am biased, still tho I TRY to look at things logically and objectively. Maybe the NCAA doesn't consider USC's infraction light (obviously), but they HAVE to acknowledge the OSU infraction is worse in that more players were and still are involved, the HEAD coach knew way ahead of time and repeatedly lied to the NCAA, and the U was already on probation.

So the main point I was making remains: If the USC penalty is upheld then the OSU penalty must be harsher, IMO, because the violations are worse. So, are they stalling the appeal decision to see what happens with TOSU, will TOSU penalty be influenced by the USC appeal, etc.

IMO for this appeal to take so long there must be reasons outside of the actual case under review. The thought of giving TOSU and follow on programs penalties lighter than USC must scare the heck out of the way because of the field day the press will have with them (NCAA). On the other hand, handing down a penalty harsher than that given to USC must scare them as well: basically taking a 2nd major CFB breadwinner out of the picture for no telling how many years.

May 6, 2011  02:30 PM ET
QUOTE(#10):

It did not help that USC hired what amounted to NCAA version of "Public Enemy #1" Lane Kiffin right in the middle of the investigation. That was a huge middle finger to the NCAA.

Yes, I agree. Wrongfully the NCAA views any action that they deem embarrasing, a slight, or (gasp) defiance as the worst infraction anyone can give.

For a real feel for this go check out Tark the Shark's book "Shark Attack". Very revealing of how the NCAA works.

May 6, 2011  02:46 PM ET
QUOTE(#12):

1 guy, no REAL PROOF (only convicted felon LL's word about a phone call) that anyone in the school had knowledge, and according to NCAA's own findings only a RB coach, Todd Mcnair, had knowledge, and then only after Reggie was done playing, and the coach was let go.

I agree that the evidence probably would not hold up in court. But that's irrelevant. The NCAA is both prosecutor and judge, and they found McNair culpable.

Moreover, the NCAA is also the appeals court and they get to set the rules for the scope of any appeal. USC's appeal cannot argue the merits of the NCAA's findings, only the 'fairness' of the penalty.

As I said in my original post, the infraction was deemed major by the NCAA, and the NCAA found that the University (McNair, an employee) knew about the infraction during Bush's senior season. IMO, major infractions with university complicity are never light.

And yes, the amount of money matters a lot. It also matters that Bush received multiple payments (or payments in kind) over many months. A.J. Green (for example) selling a single game jersey for a grand is worlds away from USC, 1980s Miami or the Albert Means case at Alabama.

That said, I would be in favor of NCAA rules changes to allow players like Bush to cut personal marketing deals. (I am not in favor of paying players an actual salary or recruiting bonus by the school.)

May 6, 2011  02:49 PM ET
QUOTE(#9):

<smacks forehead>

Not sure about the sentiment behind this

May 6, 2011  03:01 PM ET
QUOTE(#13):

Anyone else's infraction is always worse in a fan's eyes. I still say it involved only 1 player and the school (Todd Mcnair) was only involved as a corner case. Also, assuming USC's infraction was worse, so was the penalty (30 scholly reduction).

I think a better comparison would be 1980s-90s Miami: players there were getting cash for game performance, agents and celebs had free run of the locker room, and the school helped the players commit $200k of fraud with bogus Pell Grant applications. University employees went to jail.

Penalty was 15 scholarships over three years and a 1 year bowl ban.
https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/miSearch

The problem for USC in the appeal is that the "you think I'm bad, well they were even worse!" defense is a tough sell.

::Apologies in advance to MoJo for bringing up Miami. Today's program is nothing like that::

May 6, 2011  03:05 PM ET
QUOTE(#14):

Yes, I agree. Wrongfully the NCAA views any action that they deem embarrasing, a slight, or (gasp) defiance as the worst infraction anyone can give.For a real feel for this go check out Tark the Shark's book "Shark Attack". Very revealing of how the NCAA works.

The NCAA really doesn't have an alternative. They have no subpoena power, no threat of perjury charges like a real court. They must rely on schools cooperating in order to rule on infractions.

And the whole NCAA system depends on amateur student athletes, so the schools do have a vested interest in cooperating. If you replace the "amateur student athletes" with simply "athletes," there goes the tax-exempt status for the NCAA and for the schools' athletic department.

May 6, 2011  03:23 PM ET
QUOTE(#6):

LK ought to send a case of Midol over to the NCAA offices, just as a friendly gesture....or no...?

It might help more if he sent Layla to the NCAA offices

 
May 6, 2011  08:54 PM ET
QUOTE(#10):

It did not help that USC hired what amounted to NCAA version of "Public Enemy #1" Lane Kiffin right in the middle of the investigation. That was a huge middle finger to the NCAA.

So getting an ex SEC coach is like giving the finger to the NCAA! I will start watching out for Urban in C-bus!

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