MMA  > General MMA  > GOAT....?
February 17, 2012, 02:21 PM
This question has been on my mind a very long time. Will there really ever be a greatest of all time.
I am picking 2 men here, and I want to keep the subject on them.

I am an old school MMA guy. Pride, and UFC with Frank Mir breaking Tim Sylvia's arm.

Fedor has been dismissed on this site and people have even said the Lezbo would beat him and was in fact a better fighter. Now I know that is just moronic and ignorant. Now here is where I get my discussion started: It has been said ON THIS SITE many times that Fedor had faced tomato cans. Well i ask about Anderson Silvas competition...? Has he fought more skilled opposition than Fedor? I think not, with the exception of:

Belfort (Didnt fight anyone of note except an aging Rich Franklin)
Sonnen (not a terrible resume, having beat Nate the Great, Stann and Bisping)
Hendo (prob the only guy next to Sonnen who can beat him)
Franklin (x2. Silva did beat Rich in his prime, bad)
Nate the great (choker in big fights)

Now as great as Silva is, look at his level of competition. Okami? Maia? Griffin? Leites? Cote? Irvin? Lutter?

Fedor has fought, Lets remember, in their prime:
first off, he went 31-1. The 1 is only because of a doctors stopage.
Ricardo Arona ( was a phenom and lost to Fedor and Rampage. But was on a tear before that)

Babalu ( a vet in the game, some may want to keep him off the list and i can understand that)

Herring ( was in his PRIME)
Big Nog ( no need to even comment. PRIME)
Cro Cop (see above)
Fujita (beast, and first man to rock Fedor)
Coleman (Prime)
Randalman (prime)
Hunt (prime)
Sylvia (lost to randy, beat Vera, lost to big nog, then fought Fedor. He was an x UFC champ by 2 fights)
AA (lost to fedor, only after he won 5 in UFC, with the likes of Cruz, Werdum, Rothwell, Nelson)
Rogers (prob the least worthy but still had a better record than those who fought A Silva)

So, how come mainstream mma can not get thru their thick skulls that if you actually look at it Fedor is better than the spyder, due to competition. And how can Brock even be COMPARED to Fedor. Since Hyped seems to be back, I actually grew the nads to post this, since I would have someone who agrees.
February 17, 2012  03:30 PM ET

Great idea for a thread Lanzo, I like this kind of stuff.

First off, I don't know for sure where you get this idea that Fannation is full of all these Fedor haters. I love Fedor, and I supported that he was indeed the number 1 heavyweight in the world until his loss to Werdum. And I would still rank him in the top ten today. Sorry if that came off a bit defensive, but I just think that you might be thinking that everyone on here thinks alike, but I guess there only like 3 or 4 really active members, so I can see how it would come off that way.

I agree with most of what you are saying about the opponents of Fedor and Anderson.

I do think that you are drastically short changing Vitor. Didn't fight anyone of note except for Franklin? Maybe you just mean recently, but Vitor himself belongs in the GOAT conversation. He has wins over Couture, Wanderlei, Heath Herring amongst others. His career spans from defeating an in his prime Tank Abbot in the old UFC, through a battle win an in his prime Sakuraba, and to a recent 3-1 stint in the octagon.

Hunt and Fujita are both great heavyweights, but Fujita might have never been top 10, and he certainly wasn't at the time that he fought Fedor at Pride 25. Mark is a terrific fighter, one of my favorites, but I don't think he has ever been in the top 7 or so in the world. Not that those aren't solid wins, but I wouldn't put them above the Maia or Griffin wins that Silva has.

I agree also that the AA and Sylvia wins are bigger than they are often given credit for. Those guys didn't leave the UFC because they were cut, they were given ungodly sums of money to fight in Affliction. Both were only 1 fight away from UFC title fights.

It is tough to argue that anyone is better than Fedor as far as all time, but there are a few guys that could make claims for it. My pick would probably be Hendo, but I could see real arguments for Wanderlei, Vitor, or Nogueira.


P.S. I'm not sure who has said that Brock would beat Fedor, but they are, quite frankly insane.

February 17, 2012  03:39 PM ET
QUOTE(#1):

Great idea for a thread Lanzo, I like this kind of stuff.First off, I don't know for sure where you get this idea that Fannation is full of all these Fedor haters. I love Fedor, and I supported that he was indeed the number 1 heavyweight in the world until his loss to Werdum. And I would still rank him in the top ten today. Sorry if that came off a bit defensive, but I just think that you might be thinking that everyone on here thinks alike, but I guess there only like 3 or 4 really active members, so I can see how it would come off that way.I agree with most of what you are saying about the opponents of Fedor and Anderson. I do think that you are drastically short changing Vitor. Didn't fight anyone of note except for Franklin? Maybe you just mean recently, but Vitor himself belongs in the GOAT conversation. He has wins over Couture, Wanderlei, Heath Herring amongst others. His career spans from defeating an in his prime Tank Abbot in the old UFC, through a battle win an in his prime Sakuraba, and to a recent 3-1 stint in the octagon.Hunt and Fujita are both great heavyweights, but Fujita might have never been top 10, and he certainly wasn't at the time that he fought Fedor at Pride 25. Mark is a terrific fighter, one of my favorites, but I don't think he has ever been in the top 7 or so in the world. Not that those aren't solid wins, but I wouldn't put them above the Maia or Griffin wins that Silva has. I agree also that the AA and Sylvia wins are bigger than they are often given credit for. Those guys didn't leave the UFC because they were cut, they were given ungodly sums of money to fight in Affliction. Both were only 1 fight away from UFC title fights.It is tough to argue that anyone is better than Fedor as far as all time, but there are a few guys that could make claims for it. My pick would probably be Hendo, but I could see real arguments for Wanderlei, Vitor, or Nogueira.P.S. I'm not sure who has said that Brock would beat Fedor, but they are, quite frankly insane.

No offense taken, but Fedr has been ragged on this site since is losses. Not pointing anyone out as I dont remember who where the culprits.

True about Vitor, but he was gone for a while and didnt fight guys who were great in my opinion, before he fought Silva.

You really wouldnt put a win over Herring or Coleman, above winning against Maia or Griffin?
Griffin: no technique and was embarrasing against Silva.
Maia: Terrible striking, amazing BJJ. Fights start Standing up.

Coleman: Great great wrestler and god father of GnP. Prob better striking than Maia or Griffin ( I may get killed for that)
Hunt: beast.

February 17, 2012  03:47 PM ET
QUOTE(#2):

You really wouldnt put a win over Herring or Coleman, above winning against Maia or Griffin? Griffin: no technique and was embarrasing against Silva.Maia: Terrible striking, amazing BJJ. Fights start Standing up.

I was talking specifically about the Hunt and Fujita wins. I would put his first win over Mark above both of these, maybe even the second one, and for sure the Prime Herring he fought at Pride 23.

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February 17, 2012  05:02 PM ET
QUOTE(#4):

Brock at his peak 2 years ago would have beaten Fedor. Sorry, but its true. Fedor was at that time almost finished by friggin Brett Rogers. Lesnar around that time absolutely destroyed Frank Mir and beat Shane Carwin after being sick for a year. The UFC 100 Lesnar would beat Fedor. Not sure why you guys dismiss this. Hell, I'd even take Mir over Fedor right now.As for this thread. I think Fedor is the best, but if Anderson beats Sonnen I will rank Silva as the GOAT.

Brock in his peak....when was this?
To disreguard Fedor and rag on him, but praise Brock is LUDACRIS! Brock beat an out of his prime Herring, prob lost a first round to a MUCH smaller and much older Randy, and then won because he hit Randy behind the ear. I am a HUGE Mir fan, however he needs to evolve. he needs to train at another camp other than his fathers. With that said, he did get beat up at 100, and its his own fault. Mir is also at the bottom of the top 10 hw's. Also, Mir over Fedor would not happen, not with Mir's chin latley. Shane carwin? I anything HE beat a bunch of Cans, and has NOOO Cardio...

And Fedor vs Brett? Fedor was going for an arm as Brett was raining down punches.

February 17, 2012  05:04 PM ET
QUOTE(#5):

Maia right now has better striking than Coleman ever did.Fedor is ragged on this site and a lot of other sites because he refused to fight in the UFC. Simple as that.

And Maia demonstrated that vs the Spider right? His slow swinging arms, and his dancing 5 feet away from Anderson?? But Coleman wasnt much better.

And here we go..So Dana...Fedor sucks because he should have come to the UFC? Give me a time line? When? Because not for anything the UFC hw roster has been VERY thin, with the exception of maybe last year. He was fighting the best. he was fighting the Big nogs and the cro cops, IN THEIR PRIMES....

February 17, 2012  05:42 PM ET
QUOTE(#5):

Maia right now has better striking than Coleman ever did.Fedor is ragged on this site and a lot of other sites because he refused to fight in the UFC. Simple as that.

Maybe Maia now, but that is not the Maia that fought Anderson. His striking has really only come to fruition in the last 4-5 fights or so.

And if I were Fedor, and I could make twice the money to fight for Affliction, fight who I wanted for similar money in Strikeforce, I would too.

One note, all the "inferior" competition he faced in Strikeforce: All of the fighters that he fought in SF, with the exception of Rogers, have now been signed to the UFC. So the argument that he went there to duck competition should be forgotten.

Werdum, like AA and Sylvia, left the UFC as a winner, having only lost to current champion JDS before getting cut. If he was running from UFC competition, then why fight these guys?

February 17, 2012  05:48 PM ET
QUOTE(#4):

Brock at his peak 2 years ago would have beaten Fedor. Sorry, but its true. Fedor was at that time almost finished by friggin Brett Rogers. Lesnar around that time absolutely destroyed Frank Mir and beat Shane Carwin after being sick for a year. The UFC 100 Lesnar would beat Fedor. Not sure why you guys dismiss this. Hell, I'd even take Mir over Fedor right now.As for this thread. I think Fedor is the best, but if Anderson beats Sonnen I will rank Silva as the GOAT.

Come on, so if Brock would have fought him in a period of about 6 months than he would have lost? Because the Brock that fought Mir the first time would lose for sure, and Brock today would lose for sure, and the one that fought Carwin probably would lose.

I think that with what has come to light about his ability to take punishment and his cardio, there should be no doubt that at no point in time would Lesnar defeat Fedor.

February 17, 2012  05:50 PM ET

And Fedor was never that close to getting finished by Rogers. Maybe you are thinking of when he was in guard raining like 6 punches? Maybe there were more than that, but that fight wasn't even close to being stopped.

February 17, 2012  05:50 PM ET

And Fedor was never that close to getting finished by Rogers. Maybe you are thinking of when he was in guard raining like 6 punches? Maybe there were more than that, but that fight wasn't even close to being stopped.

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February 17, 2012  07:42 PM ET
QUOTE(#16):

The key word in your entire statement is WAS. He WAS fighting those guys in their primes. He WAS fighting the best. He WAS the #1 HW in the world. Now? He lost 3 straight fights. Two against top 10 HW's and one against a LHW. He then had to resort to fighting cans again. The dude hasn't beaten anyone of significance in years.

OK, and who exactly were the "prime" worldbeaters that Brock beat?

Herring? He was many years past his prime.

Couture? He was years past his prime.

Carwin? I guess he was in his prime, but that wasn't much of a prime.

Mir was the only solid win of his career. And Mir, although he has shown flashes of being an elite heavyweight, has shown that he will sink to his competition at times and has a bad habit of being comfortable in bad spots on the ground (ask Ian Freeman.)

And, Monson isn't exactly a can. He isn't top 10, but he is a former UFC title challenger and two time Abu Dhabi champion. People talk about Frank Mir's BJJ, but in BJJ he can't even shine Monson's shoes.

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February 17, 2012  10:29 PM ET

I think the Fedor vs Lesnar issue has already been done to death.

As for GOATS -Fedor vs. Silva - you make some good points about competition.
Both of them have managed to avoid a lot of the top guys in the business over the years. The HW ranks that Fedor lorded over were pretty thin. It would have been great to see Fedor against guys like Rua and Rampage back in the day. (Not saying Fedor had an obligation to fight at LHW, but there are lots of top LHWs that could have fought at HW vs Fedor). Arona won that fight, IMO, as well.

Same goes for Silva. The MW division hasn't produced a ton of top notch legacy-building opponents. Rua, Rampage, Suga would have helped Silva's resume. And he's said he won't fight Bones which is disappointing.

Both guys have a few losses on their record, but Silva is in a better position right now to keep building his legacy for a couple more years while Fedor doesn't look like he can hang with the top HWs at this point.

If Silva closes out his career with straight 5 wins over Chael, Hendo, GSP, Suga?, whoever, (and looks good in the wins) I think he'll solidify his GOAT status by going out on a big streak.
If GSP should somehow upset Silva, it opens the debate back up.

Will there ever be a greatest?
Well, on the scene right now, Bones and Aldo both look like they have the potential to outdo Fedor and Silva, but it's obviously way too early to tell.
The sport is still so young and so it will probably take a few decades to shake out. While MLB produced Babe Ruth fairly early on, it took the NHL and NBA 70 years to produce Bobby Orr and Michael Jordan.

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