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  • February 01, 2008 12:42 PM ET

No Work Today, Slow Day on Fannation 1: Top five PGs of all time in order (no active players)

Favrefan is Oden (226-83-14) vs Thugmeister (10-10-4)
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List the players first, then on with arguments.

1. Magic Johnson
2. John Stockton
3. Bob Cousy
4. Isiah Thomas
5. Gary Payton (pretty sure he isn't active)


Magic
Stockton
Isiah Thomas

All agreed. This is where I'll disagree with you.

Oscar Robertson

And just for the sake of having something else to argue over I'll say

Walt Frazier


Oscar Robertson was a SG, and even switched over to SF at times. That's why he's in my top five SG TD. Were he a PG he would be #3 on my list. At the tail end of his career he played some PG alongside Lew Alcindor, but the majority of his career (i.e. in Cincinnati) he played SG.

As for Walt vs. Payton, I had a hard time with this too. I figure Payton is somewhat dulled in our minds because he stuck around too long and really didn't look good at the end of his career. However, he was unquestionably a better defender than Frazier, and in their primes their offensive production was roughly equal. So basically for me the tiebreaker was the defense, and the Glove may have been the best defensive PG of all time.


In previous eras of the NBA the idea of "point guard" and "shooting guard" was very vague. Either guard might handle the ball on either possession. Thats why I have Oscar. Over the first 5 years of his career, he avg'd 30.3 pts, 10.6 assts, and 10.4 Rpg. His avg of over 10 assts a game was done back when the criteria for an assist where more stringent than they are now.

Payton, although one of the best defenders, was not a better defender than Frazier. Frazier was named 7 times 1st team All Defense selection. His career avg of steals is slightly higher 1.9 to Payton's 1.8
Frazier was a slightly better scorer also 18.9 to 16.3


I know about Big O's accomplishments, but I'm pretty sure he was a SG. Otherwise, like I said, he would be #3 on my list. Not sure how to get around this.

Now, I apologize for saying you didn't include Isiah. I thought you had Cousy in your top five, only because it makes absolutely no sense not to. Bob Cousy was the reason the Celtics were so good for their first few titles. In fact, when he retired everyone wondered if the Celtics could win without him. You think assist rules were stringent for Big O? How about with Cousy, no way he only got 7 a game for his career.

I thought Bob Cousy would be an automatic inclusion on any PG list, right along with Magic and Stockton. Cousy was Showtime before Showtime, he made PG a style, not just a position. He NEEDS to be on this list.

Now, one last visit to Payton vs. Frazier. Payton was a better on-ball defender than Frazier, and the only reason he has fewer steals per game than Frazier is that he hung on too long chasing that ring (which he got). Payton was also a selection to the All-Defense team NINE consecutive seasons and has a Defensive player of the year award, trumping Frazier's seven total All-Defense selections.


Apparently there is a wide discretion in the world as to whether O was a PG or SG, so I'll leave that alone - but almost every article I can find says he was a PG
I didn't put Cousy on my list because A. I didnt want to TD over one player only, and B. Isiah is a lock on this list, not Cousy. Cousy was only an average defender and never won a title until Bill Russell came along.

Frazier has 2 rings, and did not have to hang on too long to get them. Payton won his title as a backup. He also wasn't as good a rebounder as Walt. His defense and calmness under pressure, were main reasons the Knicks got their two titles.
Frazier > Payton

Comments (11) Add A Comment

February 1, 2008  12:46 PM ET
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Good luck Favrefan

February 1, 2008  12:50 PM ET
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This should be a good one. I'll wait for more arguments as always.

February 1, 2008  12:52 PM ET
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You also left of Isiah, which would be very hard for me to do.

February 1, 2008  12:53 PM ET
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Oh, and good luck to you as well.

February 1, 2008  12:59 PM ET
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I thought the Big O was a point guard.

February 1, 2008  12:59 PM ET
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ESPN thinks he's a PG...

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailydime?page=dailydime-GreatestP ointGuards

February 1, 2008  01:00 PM ET
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As does Sports Illustrated...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/multimedia/photo_gallery/2005/1 1/22/gallery.alltimepointguards/content.9.html

February 1, 2008  01:04 PM ET
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He played SG most of the time in Cincy until the later parts of his career, though he did almost all the ball handling throughout his career. That was just because he was the only good player on his team for the longest time.

February 1, 2008  01:12 PM ET
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Isiah IS on my list Favrefan......

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February 1, 2008  02:13 PM ET
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If Oscar was doing most of the ballhandling on the team, then he was really playing point guard not SG. If they called Pippen a Point Forward, then Robertson was a Point Guard.

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