Spring Trainging: Larussa's idea to bat his pitcher 8th is brilliant and should have been adopted by NL managers years ago.
Cowboys-Celtics-Chisox said 02/27, 06:39 AM
Tony Larussa has publicly stated that he will bat his pitcher 8th for the entire year (except of course in inter league games that involve a DH). This is a brilliant decision that probably has past NL managers popping themselves in the forehead thinking "why didn't I do that?"
Before anyone pulls out the "lineup only matters the first time around, after that it's random" nonsense I'll address it now. Think about a guy like Alphonso Soriano, lead off hitter for the Cubs. How many RBI's do the Cubs give away by having the pitcher hit in front of him?
In fact, it's the very "only matters first time around" that makes this idea so innovative and appealing. In the A.L. managers often bat their worst hitter 8th, then use a speed guy (usually one without the OBP to be a lead off guy) in the 9 hole. Why should the N.L. do things any differently? This gives the team two "lead off hitters" with an opportunity to get on base in front of the big guns rather than an almost automatic out before the lineup turns over.
Disagree with Tony and I? Let's hear it.
Dawgee Fresh said 02/27, 07:37 AM
Batting a pitcher 8th? I don't think that this should EVER happen in baseball, only if you are a guy like Carlos Zambrano or Dontrelle Willis. And sadly, the Cards have neither.
Alfanso Soriano's job is to get on base and steal second. A leadoff hitter is not supposed to get RBI's, just get into scoring position so you can score.
You said that get your pitcher and 8 spot so you can get a speedy guy ninth. Why? You usually want your speedy guys to get tons of at-bats and batting ninth, he will probably get 50 or mess less at-bats than a leadoff hitter. Usually your fifth, sixth, and seventh hitters are no slouches, and a pitcher might break up ralleys.
Cowboys-Celtics-Chisox said 02/27, 04:41 PM
OK, Soriano doesn't play for the Cards but the man averages 36HR and 93RBI from the LEAD OFF spot. Many teams wish they could get that production from their cleanup hitter. How many runs do the Cubs give away having Soriano hit with nobody on base in front of him?
The Cards did this for the final 56 games last season and saw an increase in run production from 4.3 runs per game in the first 106 games to 4.6 runs per game in the final 56. It's a fairly small sample size, but that's a significant increase in production
I really don't see where batting a pitcher 8th is going to break up many rally's started by the 6th and 7th place hitters. Whatever disadvantage that might present is certainly mitigated by getting a higher OBP up to bat in front of the teams BEST hitters (typically 1-5). A pitcher can be a rally killer no matter where you bat him, but a better hitter in the nine hole can be a rally starter before the lineup turns over
And remember, pitchers rarely hit after the 7th inning or so. This is only an issue the first 2 or 3 times through the lineup putting the team in better position to score more often early in games
There is no downside to this, only potential upside.
Dawgee Fresh said 02/28, 05:10 PM
Forfeited Turn
Cowboys-Celtics-Chisox said 02/28, 05:16 PM
Not much to rebut, here. Since you posted an argument in our Bonds TD and not this one I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you just forgot about this one.
The sabermetrics studies imply this is a good idea and the empirical evidence from last year suggests St. Louis improved to the tune of an extra 1/3 run per game after moving the pitcher to 8th in the order...a huge increase.
Dawgee Fresh said 02/29, 06:10 PM
Forfeited Turn
Top Olympic Pioneers
Terms under which this service is provided to you. Read our privacy guidelines.
© 2008 STATS LLC
Comments (16)
I looked at the statistical support for this as far back as last summer, and interestingly it actually makes sense from a scoring standpoint.
Vote left unless and until arguments change my mind.
Porkins | 02/27/08, 07:38 AM
Report Offensive CommentVote for CCC but will change if the arguments warrant it.
rstowe - The NMI Emperor | 02/27/08, 07:52 AM
Report Offensive CommentI agree. The guy batting in the nine-spot will likely lose around 20-30 ABs over the year, but your utility hitters will get those off the bench. Plus it forces the pitcher , if he gets into a groove in the first couple innings, to approach the third differently with the lineup being 7-pitcher-9. Vote left... for now.
Lilwound | 02/27/08, 08:33 AM
Report Offensive CommentI think this helps the Cards who only have one real good hitter. Get the damn bases loaded for him!
Cain-Willis. In & Out... | 02/27/08, 09:27 AM
Report Offensive CommentIt's brilliant...the CUBS should be doing this for sure...so should the Marlins if they insist on having a 3 hitter bat 1st...
Jimmer69 IS Darth Caedus! | 02/27/08, 09:52 AM
Report Offensive CommentWillis....so true.....the Cards need to help out Skip Schumacher as best they can.
ArmchairAthlete Is Wall-E | 02/27/08, 09:55 AM
Report Offensive CommentAs for Arizona,
They should bat Micah Owings in the heart of the order the way he swings the bat :)
ArmchairAthlete Is Wall-E | 02/27/08, 09:55 AM
Report Offensive CommentBat your big bat in the four spot, not your pitcher in the eight, that is the answer...
AllStarz | 02/27/08, 11:28 AM
Report Offensive CommentHow about not letting pitcherss get at bats in the first place? I'm tired of these clowns wasting valuable at bats.
TradeAngelos | 02/27/08, 11:57 AM
Report Offensive CommentThis idea is not necessarily brilliant or innovative.
Larussa is the most brilliant man that "HE" has ever met, just ask him!
It really is 6 of one, half dozen of the other. EVEN the first time through athe line-up you can not assume that your lineup went down in order. Any hit, error, basehit, etc shuffles the deck so to speak. You are just as likely to end up with the pitcher at bat with runners on and 2 out as anything else and a superior hitter SHOULD have been at bat were he in his natural 9th spot. Should the pitcher be in the 9th spot with one out and a runner on, he can sacriice the speedy player to second allowing your lead-off hitter to come to bat with 2 out and a speedy player in scoring position. This scenario eliminates the fielder's choice and a base hit results in a run.
By the time the pitcher comes to the plate, so many different scenarios could have rcome in to play that it just doesn't matter. I am not saying that Larussa's plan is a disaster, just that it won't make much difference either way and certainly does NOT quailfy as innovative or otherwise brilliant, just different. In all likely-hood it will not make any significant difference one way or another throughout a 162 game season.
[The] Coach on vacation | 02/27/08, 12:55 PM
Report Offensive CommentNot sure...but I'm pretty positive this wouldn't be the first year LaRussa will bat his pitcher in the 8th spot. Pending pitching match-ups, LaRussa has gone back and forth batting his pitcher in the 8-hole or 9th.
FrontPage 8 | 02/27/08, 12:56 PM
Report Offensive Commentmy vote goes this way <---- on a lack of argument from the right side over here.
FrontPage 8 | 02/27/08, 12:57 PM
Report Offensive CommentFrom a purely statistical standpoint the best way to maximize the runs a team scores is to bunch together the players with the highest on base percentage. Moving a better player to ninth, closer to the 1-2-3 hitters, might accomplish that. It seems as if the difference would be between slight and inconsequential, though. It's not a bad idea, but not a brilliant one either. More iconoclastic, than anything.
The Ram | 02/27/08, 01:29 PM
Report Offensive CommentRam.....,
You are right...it's a matter of "protecting" your #7 hitter or setting up your #1 hitter....
ArmchairAthlete Is Wall-E | 02/27/08, 01:55 PM
Report Offensive Comment<---------------------------------------------------------------------
djroxalot | 02/27/08, 05:15 PM
Report Offensive Commentsoriano isnt gunna lead off next season. I know thats besides the point here but... you get it
Stauff Nation TB | 02/29/08, 06:36 PM
Report Offensive CommentAdd a comment
Remember to keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed. More Guidelines