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Stauff Nation TB

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Middle, TN
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Throwndowns: 89
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Spring Training experiment: Barry Bonds is/was hands down this generations best hitter.


I have a theory I'm testing here so I'm not going to go into much detail in my first argument.

I'm simply stating that Barry Bonds has been the best hitter of this generation without question.


That's a pretty bold call on your part.

It's pretty tough, but I would say, since our generation isn't over yet, while Bond's career basically is, the best hitter of our generation is

Alex Rodriguez,

You didn't back yours up yet so I guess it would only be fair if I didnt back up mine.

But either way he's defidently not the best without question.


Well, 12 votes and 4 pages of comments based on 2 NAMES pretty much confirms my theory so...on with the arguments.

ARod was the choice I expected, though Manny probably would have been better.

Now, this is about the best hitter, nothing else. When he steps into the batters box, Barry has no peer as the stats clearly show.

On base percentage:

Barry - .444
ARod - .389

OPS

Barry - 1.051
Arod - .967

OPS+

Barry - 182
ARod - 147

Runs Created/game

Barry - 10.6
ARod - 8.4

Barry has led the league in OBP 10 times and in OPS 9 times. Between 1990 and 2004 Bonds finished in the top 3 in OPS every year. He's never finished lower than 6th (his rookie season and the last two years). His career OPS of 1.051is far and away the active leader and places him 4th in HISTORY.

Contrast with Alex whose career OPB of .389 places him just 15th among ACTIVE players. His career OPS of .967 is only good enough for 9th among ACTIVE players and 19th all time.

Even from a power standpoint, the man who is supposedly going to pass Bonds as the all time HR king hits a long ball just once every 14.1AB. Barry? Once every 12.9AB

By every meaningful statistical standard, Bonds is the best.


Bonds may lead in those catagories, and I'm not going to exchange career totals with you since Bonds career is 8 years longer than A-Rods, but what I'm proposing that A-Rod is a more complete hitter than Bonds was. Of course Bonds is the best Home Run Hitter of this generation so far, but if you look at these numbers, you'll see that A-Rod's all around numbers are better than Bond's numbers PER SEASON:

Avg runs
Bonds=101
A-Rod- 107

Avg Hits
BB= 133
AR= 161

Avg HR's
BB= 34
AR=37!!!!! <-------- look at this

Avg 2B
BB=27
AR=28

Avg RBI
BB= 90
AR= 107

Remember that's their averages per season...

As for Bond's on base percentage, a major factor that may be contributing to his high number there would be the total times he's walked per season, 116, compared to A-Rod's 65. If you drop Bond's career walks per season average to 65, this is what his career OBP would actually look like:

OBP= 2935 hits+ 915 BBs (rather than 2558) + 106 HBP
DIVIDED BY
9847 AB+ 915 BB + 106 HBP + 91 SF
=
a .360 on base percentage, compared to his actual .444 (A-Rods is .389)

So taking a closer look, A-Rod is more complete than Bonds is. plus ARod is clean. ran outta room


"Avg runs "

Has nothing to do with hitting. Bonds can't control who drives him in and who doesn't.

"Avg Hits "

Number of hits per season is meaningless. OBP is FAR more critical.

"Avg HR's "

Again, a meaningless number. Look at HR's per AB, not HR's per season. Bonds gets intentionally walked more than any player in history...by a wide margin. If teams would pitch to him, his HR's/Season and Hits/Season would obviously be far higher.

"Avg RBI "

Another meaningless number to this discussion. ARod, obviously, has far more RBI opportunities and again, teams won't pitch to Bonds in those situations.

"If you drop Bond's career walks per season average to 65"

WHOA! You want to CHANGE Bonds stats to make ARod look more comparable? You kidding me?

You are using stats that aren't solely dependent on hitting to make a case for best HITTER. R & RBI are dependent on other people. You can't accurately use numbers like hits/season, either. Or do you think Ichiro is a better hitter than either of them? HR/season is also a misleading number. AB/HR is the only way to make that comparison.

Finally, you can't CHANGE a mans stats to make an argument. That's ridiculous.


These stats arent meaningless. They all have to do with hitting, which makes them relevant stats for this topic. Or are they just meaningless cus A-Rod's stats are higher perhaps?

The only thing I did with Bonds's OBP was make his walks around the same as everyone elses. If you noticed, his OBP dropped 84 pts just by lowering his walks to everyone elses amounts.

The stats ARE RELEVANT because they all show that season by season, A-Rod is a more complete hitter. We can't compare season stats, even though by the end of their respective careers, at the rate they are playing right now, A-Rod's will be higher, because Bonds has played 22 seasons in the MLB while A-Rod only has played 14.

These stats show that A-Rod is more consistant and a better all around hitter than Bonds.

Obviously Bonds has more home runs, but hitting isn't just based off how many home runs you hit!

... and I wasn't planning on bringing this up, but did it also occur to you that A-Rod did this the fair way, that is, by not taking steroids? Perhaps if Bonds didn't take steroids he would have been just another slightly above average player instead of the super star he was in 2004.

Good TD tho.

Comments (98)

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I am waiting for the arguments. I am interested in the theory being tested!!

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I dont need arguments to know that A Rod is way better of a hitter than Barry Bonds and he hasn't cheated

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<-----------

No doubt about it.

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If I don't take Bonds (I think he should be in the hall but for fun he should be left out of this debate), I take Manny Ramirez. If we're talking about pure hitting, eye at the plate, etc. - Manny is second to none. A-Rod, despite magnificent power and production, can't cut Manny's plate discipline.

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No doubt about it Willis? You're voting when he hasnt posted an argument yet. Nice. No better than the others on this site.

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There is nothing to wait for. I feel Bonds is the best hitter. If arguments warrent it though, i'll change my vote later. Don't compare me to you, it's hurtful and classless.

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Hey Sean,
The whole idea of this exercise is to debate! If CCC makes the superior argument, he deserves to win. I would tend to agree with you based on my own feelings however, why even do this if we aren't going to listen to what each side has to say.

You may or may not relaize thais but many of us argue opposite our own feelings on a subject for the challenge. If people vote as you do, then the quality of the argument doesn't matter. It would be akin to the judges at a boxing match deciding a winner before a single punch is thrown.

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Frank Thomas was a much better hitter then Manny in his prime.

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He's 'testing' a theory, and you have no doubts about it, without even an inkling of an argument being posted. Thats just dumb. I have no other words for it.

I didn't compare you to me. I'm not like the others on this site. Hurtful and classless? You would know.

Why don't you send Stauff Nation a fanmail telling him to forfeit.

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LOL @ dizzle being so bitter @ 7:00 am.

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What about Nomar?

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Not great for long enough in my opinion.

Thomas was pretty dang good, and Bagwell.

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It may be 7am on the left coast. Its 10am here.

I don't think 'bitter' is the word you were looking for. When I point out that you whined and contacted moderators when losing a TD 10 to 9...I don't think bitter is a fitting description. Perhaps amused.

Trade Angelos: Solid point on Frank Thomas. Here are their limited stats during their prime playing years (FT seemed to hit his prime earlier than Manny, so his breakdown is from age 25-32, while Manny is 26-33. I wanted to be fair.)

Manny (averages)

40 HR, 130 RBI, .320 BA, 1.044 OPS

Big Hurt:

35 HR, 116 RBI, .321 BA, 1.034 OPS

They're pretty close. And the numbers are very slightly off because of a down year for Thomas in 1999, but it was included because he played in 135 games.

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<-----------

No doubt about it.

#4 Sir Willis....tic)* | 02/29/08, 09:52 AM


No doubt about it Willis? You're voting when he hasnt posted an argument yet. Nice. No better than the others on this site.

Moondizzle *CB BS* | 02/29/08, 09:53 AM

There is no doubt about it. CCC is right. Moondizzle is right that, so far, Manny's been better than Arod. These are things that can be proven. It's not subjective.

Bonds - 1.051OPS - 10.55RC/27 - 1.66BB/K - .309ISO
Manny- 1.002OPS - 8.95RC/27 - .73BB/K - .280ISO
ARod- .967OPS - 8.40RC/27 - .60BB/K - .272ISO

Stauff can have the most thought out, beautifully written arguments and he can type them until his fingers are bleeding. He'll still be wrong.

I've said it before: I thought this was a place where people who were passionate about sports could discuss subjects that they feel passionately about; but apparently, for many, these TD's actually have little to do with ideas and ideals, and more to do with debate class. That's weak.

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Nobody effects a baseball game like Barry Bonds does. A-Rod might put up monster numbers, but when an individual is intentionally walked more than a teams combined, that's game changing.

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In my opinion, only women and small children contact moderators.

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Hate him all you want, but very few hitters can be compared to Barry Bonds' numbers. I have to argue against Manny, who has played a great deal of his prime in a park perfectly suited for his hitting. Give Thomas or A-Rod the Green Monster during during their prime and their number of doubles and homers would increase significantly, as well as their OPS... ah crap, I gotta go find their park adjusted numbers now. I LOVE BASEBALL.

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In my opinion, only women and small children contact moderators.

SlinkyRedfoot | 02/29/08, 10:34 AM

I talk to them a lot, but that's just to get my comments back

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I gotta go find their park adjusted numbers now. I LOVE BASEBALL.

Lilwound | 02/29/08, 10:41 AM

Hey, Lil, what's up? I question the validity of park factors. Mostly because they change from year to year. I understand and agree with your point about Manny benifiting from the Green Monster, and I see how different parks are easier to hit in. But I struggle with the fact that they change these every year, unless, of course, the dimensions of the park have changed, or modifications to the park changed wind patterns, et cetera. I know that they factor how each park diviates from that seasons averages, but I think, for this use, that's too small of a sample size. Anyway. Rambling...

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he is.

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