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  • March 15, 2008 05:03 PM ET

When were Pitchers better in the present or the past?

Captain America (16-23-7) vs Cain-Willis. In & Out... (97-10-4)
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I say past, pitchers were just flat out amazing setting records that nobody will ever break, the last pitcher who actually played the game amazingly in my opinion was Nolan Ryan, and he set an unbreakable record as well. I believe most records the pitchers from the past set, will never be broken again. Hence their supperiority from other pitchers


I think that great pitchers still exist.

1) Many records were set because,
a) pitchers pitched more games and more innings. Teams just didn't have bullpens and closers. In 1904 Christy Mathewson started 46 games, pitched 367 innings, and threw 33 complete games! Wow.
Now they have bullpens with lefty and righty specialists, as well as closers. Starting pitchers are looked at as valuable investments that should be 'protected' be monitoring their workload.

b) Teams scored fewer runs back in the day. Some ballparks were huge! Like 450+ feet to center field! Baseball had 'helped' to get teams to score more runs...

2) Roger Clemens has almost 400 wins! That is incredible.

3) Most career strikeouts? Nolan Ryan. and then Clemens, and Randy Johnson. They have passed Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Bob Feller, Sandy Koufax, Whitey Ford.......

4) Some records probably won't be broked just because pitchers pitch less now. And that is not a bad thing. Some of the old pitchers could ;ift their arm abov their shoulder, and it was all twisted from pitching over and over, through the pain of over-use.

more to come..pitching's triple crown?


Thats why I believe Pitcher's will never achieve what some of the greats have, Johan Santana hes an absolutely amazing pitcher but he doesnt even have a 100 games won yet. He in my opinion has the highest hope to reach 350 wins maybe by the end of his career.

Some parks were ridiculous in length very true in what you said there, I think few ballparks were hitters park like Fenway Park till they reconstructed it and put the green monster.

The SO record will never be achieved, Clemens was the one who was nearest and even with steroids did not get to break it.

Winning games? Cy Youngs record of 511 wins, 315 loses, Complete games 751, and innings pitched 7,356 will never even be close to be thought about, the only record that was close to being brought down was the loses one by no other then Nolan Ryan.

I think the game has become an embarrasment of cry babies, whose "shoulder hurts" and cant keep playing, these guys played the game for less they played it to win it, and actually cared for the game.

I am running out of space for now I will continue the next argument next time around.


The game has changed. There are no more 3 man starting rotations. Pitchers usually only make 32-34 starts max. But there are still great pitchers....

1) When you say 'past', you have over 100 years of baseball. The present, is 2008. But lets look at some things....

the pitching triple crown is when a pitcher leads the league in wins, era, and strike outs.

AL, Lefty Gomez won it in 1937, then Feller in 1940, then Newhouser in 1945. And then no one won it for 42 !!! years, when Clemens won it, with an era lower than when Walter Johnson won it in 1924, 2.05 to 2.72 And Clemens struck out 292 to Walter's158. Since then, Clemens won it again, the Pedro won it, and Johan won it in 2007.

When Pedro won it, he had a lower era than Lefty Gomez, Lefty Grove, Feller,

In the NL, Randy Johnson won it in 2002, and Peavy in 2007!


With today's innovations, it is much easier to figure a pitcher out. Back then you only faced them, and then had your memory... Today, they can watch film, lift weights, break down film. Teams have whole libraries of film on pitchers.

Pitchers are still as good as ever!! They even invented new pitches, like the split-fingered pitch...


True these feats by all these athletes you have named are amazing, most of the are in the HOF or are basically in the HOF already.

However the double edge sword you presented, with all the film, weight trainning, breaking down batters with 3 different coaches at the same time about batters, and with all the medical advancements, there is today compared to 100 years ago, then pitchers should be pitching at least 300 innings easily! Remember as well pitchers just had the memory, of batters as well. So every game was like pitching a whole new game unless they remembered what they did to beat them last time.

Also the amazing factors, was well 100 years ago pitchers did not only play baseball they barely had enough money from baseball, so they also had to work as well! Tell me a pitcher in present time, that does that, that they worked same hours as us normal human beings do, and also go out there and play baseball professionally? I highly doubt you can name me even one.

Baseball has become a joke with these because pitchers dont want to keep playing because the love of the game, who ever says Roger Clemens does that just see last years contract then reflect on it.


Despite baseball changing from when a normal game was 3-2 to the norm is more like 6-4, people act like because teams score more runs now, the pitchers must be worse. This is not true!!!

The game has changed,

1904-Pitchers were prohibited from soiling a new ball.(before that, they would make it dark with tobacco spit, thus harder to see)

1910-They added a cork center to the baseball.

1917-Spitball's were outlawed. (

1968-The anti-spitball rule was rewritten and tightened up..
-The pitcher's mound was dropped five inches.

1969-The strike zone was shrunken to the area from the armpits to the top of the batter's knees.

1973-The American League began using designated hitter for pitchers...

....hitters on roids..


All these changes benefit the hitters. And yet, there are great pitcher right before us right now!


Look at the #'s ok?

1) Total strike outs: Clemens and Johnson are #2 and #3 ALL-TIME! Over 100 years of baseball and these two BOTH have over 1,000 more strikeouts than Walter Johnson, almost 2,000 more than Cy Young, and over 2,000 more than Feller, and Mathewson..... Sure games and innings have gone down, but other things have gon

Comments (20) Add A Comment

March 15, 2008  05:13 PM ET
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haha i picked up to argue against one of the greats, good luck bro truly respect ur work

March 15, 2008  05:19 PM ET
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Thank you sir, good to td with you.

March 15, 2008  05:26 PM ET
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I'd say past actually,but I'll wait.

March 15, 2008  05:37 PM ET
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I'm thinking it's todays pitchers; the pitchers who played in the deadball era had an advantage because the ball was less lively, and spitballs and scuffballs were also fairplay. Because of the weak hitting, they didn't have to throw as hard, and thus could pitch more innings. However, it is still remarkable that a mortal man could throw 7000 innings in a career.

March 15, 2008  05:40 PM ET
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They are ruining pitchers with the babying crap. Guys would pitching 300 innings year in and year out. 20 to 30 complete games year in and year out. Now they pull guys after 100 pitches.... the thing is guys still get hurt just as much if not more. What good is it doing these pitchers, I say it is doing them, no good.

March 15, 2008  05:42 PM ET
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I know all the things that happend in the deadball area, but what these athletes did in that era was just amazing

March 15, 2008  05:51 PM ET
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In the old days, they threw the ball back in if someone hit a homerun or foul ball. It was covered with dirt and tobacco juice, making it nearly impossible to see!

And can you imagine how SOFT the balls must have gotten? Have you ever played with a ball in the back yard until it got soft? No matter how hard you hit a soft ball, it just won't go far.

Now days the ball is harder and flies further. They put in new white ones all the time, and take a ball out even if it is barely scuffed.

March 15, 2008  06:08 PM ET
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I'll be back tommorrow peeps, gotta baby-sit....... :-)

March 15, 2008  06:16 PM ET
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Very true what you say there Willis but still that means amazing records, like the HR record that Babe Ruth had would not be there or DiMaggio's amazing streak. So some things is still questionable

March 15, 2008  07:50 PM ET
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*so no vote

March 15, 2008  09:10 PM ET
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Best TD ive seen in a while

March 15, 2008  11:41 PM ET
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thanks for the support, ill probably gonna lose this one, but its not against just any average Joe do. I just want to shed some light on past players so people will go learn some more on them

March 16, 2008  11:41 AM ET
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good td....i happen to agree with dolphins...i think pitching was better in the past....the best pitcher i've seen is roger...and it looks as if he cheated to become that

March 16, 2008  04:15 PM ET
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Greg Maddux has TWICE put up era's LOWER than Koufax ever did!

March 16, 2008  04:18 PM ET
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Cy Young has 316 LOSSES!

People don't realize that he lost a TON of games!

March 16, 2008  04:28 PM ET
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Here are some more good TD Ideas...

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/165955

March 16, 2008  04:28 PM ET
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Vote to the right. Better arguments.

March 16, 2008  04:30 PM ET
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Cy young led the league 1 year with 158 strikeouts.

Walter Johnson led the league one year with 158 strikeouts.

Lefty Gomez led the league with 158 strikeouts.


In 1905, the hr champ hit 9.
1909 the leader hit 9.

Baseball has changed. Players are not less talented today than they were years ago. They are not part-time farmers and part-time players.

If people can understand how baseball has changed, they will realize that will pitchers of yesteryear won more games per season, and had lower eras, but that doesn't mean they were better?

Do you think hitters got better over the decades and pitchers got more stupid? NO! They changed the baseball, they changed the dimensions of the ball-parks, they lowered the mound, they made the strike zone smaller!!!! All of these changs benefited the hitters!!!

In 1944, it was 505 feet to center field at the Polo Grounds!!! 505 feet! Do you think pitchers would give up fewer home runs in a park like that? Duh.

March 16, 2008  04:38 PM ET
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Shibe Park / Connie Mack Stadium was at one time 515 feet to CF...

Boston Braves had it 550 to CF.

 
March 16, 2008  09:23 PM ET
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Ok it is true what u are saying Willis, but the field being that big makes more doubles and triples, as well. Im not bashing at the pitchers now, they just dont play the game how they should, pitch 6 innings and get a week rest? Are u serious? batters have to go thru the wear and tear of the season , because they field and bat, 162 games a year (at least most of them do) Pitchers pitch 33 games maybe. At that. Thats just embarassing! and to fork over that much money as well?

Infact pitchers have the advantage of well rest over batters at that and reviewing film and doing more work to prepare for their next game. Batters have to worry about the next day they cant worry about 5 days ahead.

Mister Clemens one of the center of the point of the argument pitched in 709 games and complete games 118. Hes an amazing pitcher dont get me wrong, but when he starts losing a little of his control then he got out of the game. Cy Young didnt have that type of luxury, to do this and he didnt have the luxury to have a closer at that. He pitched 751 games more games that even Clemens pitched.

Of course they woudnt strike out pitchers they are tired of throwing so much, and working. Plus all the medical achivements we have today they didnt have in the past, and knowing all these injuries and how to prevent them and such.

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