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  • March 25, 2008 03:49 PM ET

SoccerNation Tournament II - Semifinals - What would be the most effective way to deter dissent by players against referees in the EPL?

Bigalke (105-35-15) vs Stauff Nation TB (55-30-4)
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Ashley Cole turns his back on referee Mike Riley while receiving a yellow card... Javier Mascherano chased & harrassed referee Steve Bennett even AFTER being sent off the pitch...

Increasingly, high-priced players have lost respect for the officials on the field. Fighting with refs, arguing calls, willful dissent... these are not the principles upon which soccer was born. Mascherano received a red card for his actions & will face a one-game suspension; Cole went largely unscathed after being made into a media scapegoat. players are increasingly becoming belligerent & vocal with the officials on the pitch. What should the FA do to stave the tide of dissent?

Would a yellow card or red card deter players from dissenting the authority of the referee? Is a "no-go" zone around the referee the best way?

I would argue that the FA needs to hit clubs where it hurts -- the league table -- to effectively get clubs like Chelsea, who have gone before FA panels for "failing to control their players", to clamp down on player misbehavior. Once clubs realize that points and league position are @ stake (& potential Euro qualification), only THEN will players take these dissent charges seriously.


I agree that the disrespect of officials is a problem, not just in soccer, but in all sports, and has been since the beginning of sports. Its common nature to be angry when the offical calls against you or goes against your team in a contreversial play.

However, no matter what happens, we can not prevent players from getting angry after getting sent off or carded. No matter what happens they'll still be angry, and losing points will not prevent anyone from getting angry.

Losing points, in my opinion, is the wrong way to punish teams and players for several reasons:
1) The consequences could be severe. If my Celtic finished the season 2 pts ahead of Rangers but the title was given to Rangers because 3 points were taken away when Scott Brown was sent off (hypothically of course, but could happen) there would be pandemonium in the streets. I would be mad as hell, and imagine how angry the Hoops Ultras/Hooligans would be if their title was given away. Rioting would ensue.
2) No team would be for this change, and the leagues cannot just go ahead and change rulings whenever they please.
MY POINT: Taking away points would haunt the leagues for years.

Solution: Bigger fines $$$


The problem with fines is that it does not effectively bring clubs to keep their players in line. Players make astronomical salaries in the EPL... for most any player, 30000 pounds amounts to little more than a pittance. Fining the players/suspending them has not worked in the past... the problem continues...

But by penalizing clubs in the points column, it causes two fundamental shifts in reasoning that will work to solve the problem:

1. Clubs will both work harder in evaluating players for more than just talent. And, if & when a problem does arise, it gives the clubs greater bargaining power in bringing players back in line. If clubs were forced to police their own players better when they act irrationally on the pitch, there would be disincentive to act out...

2. Players will take the initiative to police their own teammates better. When the entire club is affected by the hot-headed actions of one of its own, the repercussions ring louder than a mere fine will. A fine affects the individual, and the other individuals @ the club are less likely to take further preventative action. But if EVERYONE is hurt by the actions of one, the others will work to prevent these actions...


Yes I realize that points would certainly grab the board's attention, but believe it or not money does, too.

It may come in small amounts, but when teams are fined its front page news. The team is embarrased by the actions of their players, fans, coaches or whoever recieved the fine, and the message gets sent not to do it again. That's why guys who have anger problems usually don't have long careers with one or two teams. They're usually passed around, soley based on their talent, but no franchise wants them in the long haul because of his behavioral issues that make the team look bad.

Money talks more than anything in sports, and the one most single important thing that brings in money for football clubs is winning games. If you take games away, not only would the team be embarassed, but also angry at the leage, and once again the fans and media would be furious.

Taking away points could possibly turn out to be disasterous, as usually only a handful of points decides who wins the league.

I say we up the amount fined (not to the point where it can endanger smaller clubs) but make it enough to send a message to the board that will not cause pandemonium in the streets.


People aren't going to stop supporting their club if the fines are levied from that club -- or from the players. If several players from the same club were to be penalized with fines & still could take the pitch, it would have no substantive effect. Suspensions only go so far with superstar-laden clubs like Chelsea, & owners like Roman Abramovich or Malcolm Glazer can easily take care of any fines assessed to a club...

Money DOES talk in sports, and the funds lost if a club were to miss European competition for failing to control the actions of its players are far greater than any fines which could ever reasonably be levied. Fans, too, would definitely take note & petition their club to either remove malcontents or bring them back in line. The fan clubs are smart enough, for the most part, to know how to get through to the clubs & voice discontent...

We are only talking about EPL clubs, remember... & this is the action which would most effectively deter wanton dissent on the pitch. When the entire club suffers -- & it will suffer most from the loss of POINTS, not cash reserves -- it & the players will demand respect from all the members of the club... fines do not do enough...


I didnt say fans would stop supporting their teams, but the team will defidently would be embarrased after any fines. Coaches and Team Boards don't need to lose points to get the message that their players need to calm down a bit. Believe me stuff goes on behind the scenes that we don't even know about. I'm sure Cole and Mascherano were both chewed out heavily by their coaches and the board. Believe me these guy's don't go unscathed. Usually a stern slap on the wrist will keep the players from doing it again, and when they continue, they're usually out on the stoop in June.

And remember that teams like Chelsea are not the only teams in the EPL. Just because a $30,000 fine would barely scratch Roman's wallet, it would leave a noticable tear in the leather of Derby County's or Middlesbrough's.

Taking points away isn't the only thing that will quiet down these players. Any money lost will anger the boards and it will get down to the players rather quickly.

And a steeper fine would defidently get the job done in shutting them up.

Realisticly, taking points away isn't going to happen, so larger fines is the only logical way to punish teams in a growing problem such as this.

Comments (17) Add A Comment

March 25, 2008  07:58 PM ET
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sorry I ran outta room in that first arguement so I couldnt really back up my solution. Get back to it later.

March 25, 2008  09:36 PM ET
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No problem... I didn't go too far into my reasoning in the first argument either...

March 26, 2008  01:21 AM ET
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Taking points off the Table isn't going to happen.That's really an extremists theory. Once a match is complete, it should stay that way. Stiffer fines and longer suspensions would help. The league should develope rules that deal with dissent much more harshley, but I'm still in favor of punishing the player involved rather than everyone on his team..

March 26, 2008  01:39 AM ET
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I just want to reiterate, for fairness sake, that this topic is not that which is most LIKELY, but that which would be most EFFECTIVE in changing the culture of disrespect and dissuading future dissent...

Please let the above arguments sway any and every vote... this comment is not meant to be an argument in and of itself. Just want to make sure the topic is comprehended correctly so as to set the voting parameters in this debate...

March 26, 2008  02:01 AM ET
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Bigalke said Ashley Cole, vote left*...


*Stauff, I'm not that moronic, he was just arguing from the stronger side

March 26, 2008  08:05 AM ET
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Hey, I think Stauff Nation is talking about Marco Materazzi in his second argument. He is an idiot and I'm getting sick and tired of him. AS for the TD, guys I liked it a lot. I'm not at all for taking points away, but Bigalke almost convinced me. Could it really happen? Probably not. But the fines would be great too. So my vote will go to Bigalke. I also came up with an idea for when teams are caught "talking illegally" to players from other countries. I think in this case maybe the EPL and FA could force that side to only transfer players from England. They wouldn't be allowed to get players from outside England for a year. This would teach them a lesson, especially the big clubs. It would simply tell them that there are rules and you have to obey them. What do you guys think? And I'll say it again, Good TD guys. Keep it up.

March 26, 2008  11:10 AM ET
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There are other ways teams can control their players that they're having referee dissent with. :)

I don't agree taking points away from a team is a realistic nor a fair solution for the actions of 1 player. Yes I'm sure it would be effective though. I might have argued that fines and misconduct/suspension penalties would be just as effective and would punish those concerned and hurt the team by their star prima donna's sitting out and taking it in the pocket. Since Stauff didn't mention anything besides money, I have to give the nod to the left here.

March 26, 2008  01:13 PM ET
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I like Stauff here

March 26, 2008  04:34 PM ET
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Thank you

March 26, 2008  05:40 PM ET
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That is cool, jeevs... I know you read the arguments before coming to that conclusion...

March 26, 2008  09:43 PM ET
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OK.....the Throwdown asks this question: What would be the most effective way to deter dissent by players against referees in the EPL?

Bigalke answer.....I would argue that the FA needs to hit clubs where it hurts -- the league table

Stauff answer.....Solution: Bigger fines $$$

In a hypothetical world, Bigalke wins the argument. But, from the way I read this, Stauff is taking the Throwdown from a realistic viewpoint and is trying to point out exactly WHY hitting the League Table could be considered ineffective at best. Soccer fans, especially England nationals, have an extensive history of being hostile and riotous when it comes to what's happening on the pitch. You need only look back to the 2004 Euro Championships in Portugal or the more recent outbreak of violence that took place in Stuttgart Germany after the German's second round World Cup victory over Sweden in 2006. In the case of Javier Mascherano, points off the table wouldn't have made a huge difference, but points off the table because of the on pitch behavior of Ashley Cole would likely have lead to all hell breaking out. As Stauff pointed out, you're never going to be able to prevent people from getting angry. No matter what the rules are. Handled incorrectly, I see the very real potential of creating a public backlash in the streets of the cities and towns of an entire nation.

Vote goes to Stauff Nation

March 26, 2008  10:07 PM ET
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I ask this though: do fines in any of their iterations effectively deter dissent? How much is enough, how much does nothing, and how much is TOO much?

Even ONE point off the table does irreparable damage... money can be remade (easily) in soccer; points cannot be won back once they are lost...

March 26, 2008  11:30 PM ET
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Well Bigalke, to answer your first question: Do fines in any of their iterations effectively deter dissent? I'll give an emphatic NO! Because if the answer were yes, then we'd all be missing a great Throwdown right now. I don't have the answer to: How much is enough? But I will say this, If I'm running the club and I see what Mascherano did, I can promise you he's geting his....after the game.....behind closed doors. I'm going to rip him a new one and let him know just who happens to be in charge here. Of course this is a disgrace and he's going to have a very clear understanding of the situation before those doors get opened again. I'm going to pull out his contract and ask him to show me where it says we're paying him to spout off like a thug out there. Then comes the ultimatum.....you either keep your distance from the Ref and KEEP YOUR TRAP SHUT FROM NOW ON OR ELSE I DON"T WANT YOU HERE!!!!!!!!! Fine him a hundred thousand Pounds, suspend him for at least three games and order him to make a formal opology to the team, the ref involved and the League.....that one point off the table may be lost due to the suspension itself.

Anyway, very good ThrowDown by both of you. Nothing beats a good Soccer discussion. I hope I made sense here.

March 27, 2008  12:41 AM ET
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Fair enough, Goldenthread, and I had no intention of attempting to sway your vote down in the comments... hope you and everyone else is assured of that! I agree with you that nothing beats a good soccer discussion... and thanks for giving some relevant thoughts down here to enrich this discourse...

March 27, 2008  12:43 AM ET
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"Do fines in any of their iterations effectively deter dissent? I'll give an emphatic NO!"

Though I must contend that if this TRULY is how you feel, then even the 100000 pounds would not be enough... fines alone cannot deter dissent; you have to add on the formal apology and the suspension to make it effective in deterring future incidences of bad behavior against those arbiters in charge of order on the pitch...

March 27, 2008  01:16 AM ET
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Stauff... great throwdown... thanks for the debate!

 
March 27, 2008  01:17 AM ET
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Congratulations on a fine win Bigalke. David Beckham tips his 100th cap to you..I tip my one any only cap to you as well. Thanks.

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