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- April 22, 2008 12:46 PM ET
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Leader board Challenge: When it's all said and done, would you rather have the numbers or the championships?
Dookie: Here We Go Steelers said 04/22, 12:46 PM
Now let me be clear, we all recognize to be truly considered one of the best it helps to have both numbers and rings (see Favre, Elway, Jordan, etc.)
But at the end of your career, If you could only have one (Rings or Numbers) which would you rather have?
I take the numbers. Too often in sports the lack of championships held against a person. Marino put up staggering numbers at QB and most people will say is that he never won a championship. Well to win a championship, you need to have a great team. Yes, your performance might raise the level of your team to championship caliber, but ultimately the numbers are what define you as an individual and what you SHOULD be remembered by.
When it comes down to it, if I were a player and wanted to be remembered for a long time, the stats is what I'd want and need to be remembered. I would gladly sacrifice a championship for being known as one of the greatest statistical players of all time (see Ted Williams, Dan Marino, Barkley/Malone/Stockton/Ewing/Baylor for examples)
Cain-Willis. In & Out... said 04/22, 07:46 PM
Q: What is the ultimate goal of sports?
A: To win it all. To be a champion.
Winning the biggest game is the final, fulfilling act of every athlete. Hours in the gym, hours in the video room, hours toiling over details, hours of sweat, blood, and tears. All for what? TO WIN.
Winning a ring is the top of the mountain. I agree that rings alone do not define a player. However, if you as a player NEVER get to that mountain top, you retire incomplete. Not a failure, but you can never hold your head high and admire the flash of the sun off your massive CHAMPIONSHIP RING.
Ok, picture this in your mind. It's game 7 of the WS. Would you rather go 3 for 5 and strike out with the bases loaded in the 9th to lose the game, or go 1 for 4 with the WS-winning hit in the bottom of the 9th?
Remember all those stories of old people at death's door, who want nothing more than to see the Red Sox win a WS? How many people lay on their deathbed and groan, "ohh...i really want papi to hit 50 hr this year.."
The biggest regret players have, is that they never got a ring. What player says, "gosh, i wish i hit 275 hr instead of 240"? At the end of the day, rings matter most.
Dookie: Here We Go Steelers said 04/22, 08:34 PM
Q: Who would you rather be, Dan Marino or Trent Dilfer? Ted Williams or Thurman Tucker (1948 World Series winner)? Patrick Ewing or Sean Marks?
A: Of course Marino, Williams, and Ewing
Do you think that Dilfer and the others listed above hold their head higher than Marino, Williams and Ewing? So what that they did not win a championship ring...their legacy will live on for MANY MANY more years than those who have no statistcs and just a championship.
Picture this: Who would you rather be in this World Series:
Player A: 8 hits in 17 ABs 2 2Bs 4HRs 6RBI .471 avg 13BB 3SO in a loss
Player B: 0 hits in 1 AB but a ring?
oh yea, player A's career numbers: .298 avg 762HR 1996 RBI, 2935 Hits, 514 Stolen Bases
I would much rather be known as one of the greatest players of all time (steroids or not) than a sub off the bench with a ring. (A ring he didn't even earn)
For your argument about people on death's bed, those are fans who root for a TEAM. They don't care whether or not the third string DH gets a ring or not.
"gosh, i wish i hit 275 hr instead of 240"?
-No, but I bet that guy would trade a ring to hit 550 homeruns and be guaranteed a spot in the HOF
Cain-Willis. In & Out... said 04/22, 09:09 PM
Sure, a superstar is usually richer and more famous than a bench player who never gets into a game. Duh. But you saying that you'd rather be a mega-rich super-star instead of a guy who never plays is a clever attempt at avoiding the very heart of this TD.
My position is that contributing to a team on a lesser level and winning RINGS is better than being a super-star and always falling short. Personally, I'd rather have 10 Million or less in the bank and WS/SB rings on my hands than 200 Million in the bank and having to buy myself jewelry. ...how lame is that?... Why do you think players take less money to be on a better team? Why do old player hang on past their prime?
Let's make 2 Cub's players.
Player A: Goes 20-4, wins a Cy, and doesnt win a ring.
Player B: Goes 10-10, but pitches a shutout game 7 in the WS!
Can you imagine how I would be viewed if i won a WS for the Cubs? I would never have to pay for anything again in Chicago. People would name babies after me! They'd buy me gas at the pumps! I'd be viewed as a near-diety!
40 HR season? 100 Million $
50 HR season? 150 Million $
70 HR season? 200 Million $
1 WS winning HR? Priceless.
-to be continued
Dookie: Here We Go Steelers said 04/22, 10:54 PM
You're trying to compare everything being equal and adding a champ to one. Sure, all things being equal, a champ means a lot. But when things arent equal, the champ is not worth more than the stats. Sure it might make up for like 25 touchdowns or 25 homeruns over a career, but its not be worth more than that. That is why statistics will always weigh more in the minds of fans and mean more in remembering a player.
You're talking about great performances in the biggest games. I'm talking about just winning a ring or just getting the stats (not over 1 season or 1 game but over the career).
As for the Cubs, if you won a ring as a member of the team, you wouldn't make the HOF for it
When it comes to being remembered through generations, you almost have to be in the HOF. That should be every players main goal. Few players make the HOF for just winning a ring. Many great players make the HOF with no ring, but NOT ONE player has made the HOF for having a ring and no stats. The few that are questionable have other reasons they were in besides winning 1 champ. The rings help make a great player into a HOF player. When you have great stats, you already are a HOF player-ring or not
Cain-Willis. In & Out... said 04/23, 09:49 AM
Do you realize that all the great athletes who have to retire would give
nearly anything to have been a World Champion even just once?
It is the highest, noblest goal of every athlete. To be a Champion!
Everything else fades away and becomes less significant when you
are standing under the sparkling confetti streaming down like rain. At
that very moment, would ANYONE on the winning team want to change
places with ANYONE on the losing team? No way!! Their heart is pounding, eyes wide as tears of joy roll down, they scream like babies and embrace each other in ecstatice euphoria!! THEY DID IT! They are CHAMPIONS!! No amount of money or bronze plaques can take the place of being in that moment!
Sure Marino is in the HOF. Woo-hoo! But his career goal was NEVER achieved. He ALWAYS fell short! He NEVER took the training wheels off his career! Over and Over and Over and Over and Over he failed. FAILURE!! INCOMPLETE!
If your goal as an athlete going into your career is ANYTHING LESS THAN WINNING A CHAMIONSHIP, you have a warped understanding of the word WINNER! If losing doesn't bother you, what does that make you? Pathetic.
No my friend, nothing can replace a ring.
Leaderboard
| Fan | W | L | T | Win % | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | YODA | 46 | 3 | 2 | 92.2% |
| 2 | Porkins: You're all my dupes | 155 | 14 | 1 | 91.5% |
| 3 | Detroit... | 132 | 9 | 8 | 91.3% |
| 4 | The Ram | 149 | 17 | 4 | 88.8% |
| 5 | Baun-de... | 61 | 7 | 2 | 88.6% |
| 6 | FoosBal... | 82 | 12 | 2 | 86.5% |
| 7 | Hyped78 | 130 | 19 | 5 | 86.0% |
| 8 | PhillyE... | 75 | 11 | 4 | 85.6% |
| 9 | Dookie: Here We Go Steelers | 119 | 19 | 8 | 84.2% |
| 10 | [The] Coach | 103 | 18 | 5 | 83.7% |
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Comments (69) Add A Comment
It all depends on what you value as an athlete. But it comes down to great individual performance versus great team play. Good question, but very subjective.
Porkins: You're all…
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (11551)
yea...i tried to make it a fair challenege as I myself am rather on the fence about this issue
Dookie: Here We Go…
Pittsburgh , PA
Total Comments (6392)
i hoped by making it rather subjective people will vote on the better arguments (alas i know this has little chance of happening...but i can hope)
Dookie: Here We Go…
Pittsburgh , PA
Total Comments (6392)
Uh oh Duq...you mentioned Marino and great in the same sentence. Now Frank is going to show up with his a great QB will find a way to get a ring theories.....good job! Now we'll have to listen to him rant about that again!
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
I heard that Dan Marino and Trent Dilfer are the same person, and that's why Marino isn't upset about never winning a ring.
Porkins: You're all…
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (11551)
Stats alone can get you into whichever HOF, Rings can't...unless your name is Bradshaw, Namath......
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
Stallworth....
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
Stowe, should Swann be on your list? You know, Lynn Swann, from the Steelers?
Porkins: You're all…
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (11551)
Yeah Swannie too.....
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
What about Harris - I mean he's only in because of 1 catch!
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
haha o man...why the steelers bashing guys?
Dookie: Here We Go…
Pittsburgh , PA
Total Comments (6392)
Mmmm....I wonder......
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
"Well to win a championship, you need to have a great team."
I disagree- He had All-Pros around him-
How many PBs did Marnio play with?
4? 5 on offense alone? How many 1985 Bears are in the Hall on Offense?
A throwdowner named…
Princeton , LA
Total Comments (33726)
This is great. Maybe there should be more general TD's like this where one could argue which is better, QB with rings or stats .
Oso Famoso
Palinville, AK
Total Comments (18064)
Bashing? I see no bashing. Simply a legitimate set of of proposals.
For example, if stowe wanted to propose that the Steelers had a lot of players that were overrated, he might offer some specific examples and show how even though they have some rings, their numbers aren't so great.
If he was so inclined, that is.
Porkins: You're all…
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (11551)
Robert Horry's name isn't going anywhere........
Tonight....You
Dopest Location Ever, OG
Total Comments (1534)
Robert Horry's name isn't going anywhere........
Powdered Toast Man | 04/22/08, 02:23 PM
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Thankfully the basketball Hall of Fame doesn't reward rings like the NFL HOF does....coughSteelersOcough....
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
Or the MLB HOF....coughbigredmachinecough....coughtonypenaseriouslycough... ..
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
Sorry meant perez not pena in my last smartass comment.
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (23815)
What about Harris - I mean he's only in because of 1 catch!
rstowe - The NMI Emperor | 04/22/08, 01:14 PM
Hey, I'll have you know I earned everything I... oh.. that Harris.
But this should be a great debate, can't wait to read it.
Harris.
Mankato, MN
Total Comments (898)
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