Throwdowns > Completed
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- May 04, 2008 01:33 PM ET
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E4P Is Not So Mad For Max said 05/04, 01:33 PM
Name your player and his stats during that period first. Save the debating for the final two. (We can only use their statistics through this time period)
~Sandy Koufax~
Season averages through 1960-1966
2.48 era
19 wins
258 innings
Other statistics through 1960-1966
Threw a Perfect Game in 1965
Set Single Season Record for Ks in a Season in 1965 (Now broken)
Set the Single Season Record for must complete game shut-outs in 1963
Made the All Star team (1961, 1965, 1966)
NL MVP Award in 1963
3 Cy Young Awards (1963, 1965, 1966) ~Remember during this period there was only one Cy Yong award for both leagues~
2-Time World Series MVP (1963, 1965)
Good Luck RStowe
rstowe said 05/05, 06:53 AM
Great choice in Koufax. My choice is: Bob Gibson
ERA from 60-69: 2.74
Innings Pitched: 2447
336 Games
306 Games Started
164 Wins
4 20+ Win seasons
4 Saves
164 Complete Games
41 Shutouts
2071 Strikeouts
6 All-Star Selections
1 Cy Young
1 MVP
5 Gold Gloves
Led the League in ERA once during this time period with an ERA of 1.12
Led the NL in WHIP once
Led the NL in Strikeouts once, top 5 in NL all years during this time except 1 season
2 World Series MVPs
E4P Is Not So Mad For Max said 05/06, 01:28 AM
I was thinking you would pick Juan Marichal. I forgot about Bob, nice pick though.
It's hard to compare their stats exactly since my man Sandy played 3 less years in that era. So I think the fariest things to do is compare their averages per season in that decade:
~Koufax
2.48 era
19 wins
258 innings
~Gibson
2.98 era
16 wins
244 innings
Don't get me wrong, Bob is an increadible pitcher, probably top ten of all time. But he really has nothing on Koufax. And its not like they were two different ages either, they were only maybe one year apart in age in this time period.
They did both have 2 WS MVPs but Koufax Cy Youngs triple Gibson's. (3-1). And Koufax last season in his career might be one of the best when he posted 27-9 record and a 1.73 era.
Both of this pitchers were the some of the best ever but I think this is a simple case of superior statistics, which Koufax owns.
rstowe said 05/06, 06:49 AM
Yes, Koufax may have Gibson on stats but sometimes stats don't tell the whole story.
Here are some other records that Gibson owns:
35 strikeouts during a World Series (1968)
17 strikeouts in a World Series game (Game 1, 1968) - broke Koufax's record of 15 set in 1963
Speaking of World Series, in the 1967 World Series, Gibson allowed only three earned runs and 14 hits over three complete game victories (Games 1, 4, and 7), the latter two marks tying Christy Mathewson's 1905 record, also hitting a vital home run in Game 7.
The ERA of 1.12 Gibson had in 1968 is still a "live-ball" record for ERA to this day....and what did the majors do because of it? They dropped the mound 5 inches the following season.
Koufax was great but was he ever truly intimidating? Gibson is the most intimidating pitcher of all-time....he had no qualms about coming inside to batters. Here's an example: in 1967 Gibson had his leg broke by a line drive hit by Roberto Clemente. Gibson was out for a couple of months and the first time he faced Clemente, he threw at his head, making Clemente dive into the batter's box.
Both were great pitchers but no one wanted to stand in against Gibson.
E4P Is Not So Mad For Max said 05/06, 11:55 PM
Just because he threw at Clemente's head one time he's considered the most intimidating pitcher of all time? To me that isn't intimidating, that's cowardly. But we aren't arguing the most intimidating/cowarldy pitcher of the 60's...
He did have a great era season but one season can't trump the consistent, and better, average Koufax had during that decade. Ditto to the his 35 K's. Individual achievements can't outweigh Koufax's constants superiority.
During the 60's Koufax totalled up 300+ strikeouts three times in that period including a 382 season which just happens to be good enough for most ever by a left hander in a season. Gibson didn't come within 25 strikeouts of 300 hundred in his best season!
I will admit Gibson does have some increadible records in those world series, some of which will never be broken. But you can't judge somebody exclusively on those games. You have to judge them by how consistent they were throughout their career. And in this case, Koufax owns the superior stats hands down.
rstowe said 05/07, 06:52 AM
Throwing at Clemente once didn't earn Gibson the title of most intimidating pitcher of all time - throwing at everyone anytime did. Gibson owned the inside of the plate and made sure each and every hitter was aware of it. He was the first true "headhunter" pitcher - before Pedro and Clemens. The following statement was from Hank Aaron to Dusy Baker..."'Don't dig in against Bob Gibson, he'll knock you down. He'd knock down his own grandmother if she dared to challenge him. Don't stare at him, don't smile at him, don't talk to him. He doesn't like it. If you happen to hit a home run, don't run too slow, don't run too fast. If you happen to want to celebrate, get in the tunnel first. And if he hits you, don't charge the mound, because he's a Gold Glove boxer.' I'm like, 'Damn, what about my 17-game hitting streak?' That was the night it ended."
Gibson was also a fantastic hitter for a pitcher. 24 homeruns and 144 RBIs for his career.
Even after they lowered the mound strictly because of Gibson, he still went 20-13 with a 2.18 ERA....so MLB took away one advantage from him and he still had a fantastic season.
Leaderboard
| Fan | W | L | T | Win % | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 1 | DetroitFan* BS: Start Stanton! | 132 | 9 | 7 | 91.6% |
| 2 | Porkins: Catches bullets | 138 | 13 | 1 | 91.1% |
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| 5 | Foosball | 68 | 9 | 2 | 87.3% |
| 6 | Philly-- www.sportsnoise.com | 74 | 11 | 4 | 85.4% |
| 7 | Hyped78 | 113 | 19 | 5 | 84.3% |
| 8 | Dookie: Here We Go Steelers | 117 | 19 | 8 | 84.0% |
| 9 | [The] Coach | 97 | 18 | 5 | 82.9% |
| 10 | BSchwartz07 | 129 | 27 | 6 | 81.5% |
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Danica Patrck
Bar Refaeli
Comments (26) Add A Comment
Not a whole lot can compete...Warren Spahn, Bob Gibson, Whitey Ford, Juan Marichal, Hoyt Wilhelm, to name a few though.
Lifer: Metallica…
Total Comments (9874)
Wow,rstowe sure needs a great arguement to make me vote for him
Civardi
Seaside Park, NJ
Total Comments (17379)
Good luck Elway.
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (21215)
No brainer. Vote <-------. Unless E4P falls on his face, this SHOULD be a blowout.
Cain-Willis. In…
Fountain Of Youth, CA
Total Comments (3494)
Koufax by a mile
Papi's 1# Fan is The…
Total Comments (253)
Nothing like waiting for some real arguments there Papi....we were limited to stats/awards only in the 1st argument....and you wonder why you got voted down for NMI?
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (21215)
A longtime Dodger fan agrees with the Gibson pick.
Cassidy's Ultimate…
Whatsittoya, NO
Total Comments (13871)
Great arguments by both of you... gotta come back to see the third ones
Johnny B is Here We…
Orange, NJ
Total Comments (184)
I'm leaning Koufax, a lot of Gibson's great years came in the 70's. Koufax's hall of fame resume was solely built on what he did in the 60's.
Basketball Jesus:…
Mc Lean , VA
Total Comments (1618)
gibson<koafax
Trade Kevin Durant
Total Comments (3)
Great TD E4P
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (21215)
Gibson: More intimidating, but more intimidating doesn't equal better
Basketball Jesus:…
Mc Lean , VA
Total Comments (1618)
I Like Koufax here but Gibson is a close 2nd.
Foosball
Total Comments (1500)
both great picks...both great arugments...my head is throbbing though, i will review this in a few hours before i make my vote
gonets
Lewisville, TX
Total Comments (6453)
Vote goes to Koufax...I am still baffled that he would win the MVP and go to the WS in 1963, but not make the all-star team!
FreakyUberCrazyKille…
Eugene , OR
Total Comments (86)
Great throwdown, guys... two excellent arguments for two excellent pitchers
Johnny B is Here We…
Orange, NJ
Total Comments (184)
Great TD you too. Great arguments by both...my vote goes to rstowe though.
Dyhard:Homecoming…
Germantown, WI
Total Comments (32289)
Both great. I'm leaning to Gibson. Vote to rstowe.
J. HOVA: BROOKLYN'S…
Brooklyn, NY
Total Comments (12870)
Vote right. Koufax was better, but rstowe has a better argument.
Lifer: Metallica…
Total Comments (9874)
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