Throwdowns > Completed
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- May 07, 2008 02:01 AM ET
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thehemogoblin- Gone said 05/07, 02:01 AM
I'm going to eschew the normal players for one oft-overlooked power hitter who was stuck on relatively moribund teams for his entire career. That player is none other than Harmon "Killer" Killebrew.
He led the majors five times in this era in home runs, hit more than forty home runs in 6 different seasons, led twice in RBIs, 6 seasons of 110+ RBI, 3 times in walks, once in extra base hits, once in total bases, and four times in AB/HR, along with an MVP award... IN THIS TEN YEAR PERIOD.
Three times he registered OBPs above .400, meaning that even though his batting average at its peak was only .288, he was still getting on base a lot more than his batting average showed (his LOWEST OBP was .349).
Only three times in this period did Harmon Killebrew not reach 39 home runs, and in those years, he hit a total of 73 home runs in 337 games out of a possible 486 (he missed nearly a full season). Had he played in every game in those three seasons, he would have averaged 35 home runs a season for those seasons instead of 24 home runs.
Dyhard:Homecoming Week said 05/07, 05:38 PM
I'm going to go with one of the best HR hitters in baseball history. His name is Hank Aaron. I'm going with him for the best hitter in the 1960's.
He made 10 All-Star appearances during that time. Every year he got into All-Star game. That is very impressive. Killebrew didn't make it all 10 years like Aaron did.
He led the league in slugging twice, OPS once, runs twice, 5 times in total bases, twice in doubles, 3 times in home runs, 3 times in RBI, 5 season oof 120+ RBI, 4 times in extra base hit, all this in a ten-year period.
Every season between 1960-1969, he had an OBP above .350. 4 times he hit 40 home runs or more. Hank Aaron's lowest OBP was .352! His BA for the 1960's was .308. That is good. he had a total of 1819 hits. During the 1960's he hit 375 home runs, and he had a total of 1107 runs batted in.
Hank Aaron is a very good player. He might not have led the league in HR, or hit a lot of HR like Killebrew did, he still had 375 HR in the ten year span. He also had over 1100 runs driven in, which helped his team out a lot.
Hank Aaron is the greatest hitter in the 1960s.
thehemogoblin- Gone said 05/08, 02:14 AM
Wow, the All-Star game, beacon of not really mattering. When you consider that Killebrew made one with a .210 batting average, it's not anything.
Funny thing about that .210 batting average... Killebrew had an OBP of .361 that year. It's not like he wasn't getting on base, but to the untrained eye that looks bad. Most All-Star voters are untrained eyes, so, All-Star games don't really mean that much.
Aaron played in 1540 games during this decade, and Killebrew 1429, so to get the totals to a level playing field, what Killebrew would have done with the 111 extra games is under his stats.
Aaron- 375 HR, 1107 RBI
Killebrew- 393 HR, 1013 RBI
K (adjusted)- 424 HR, 1091 RBI
and their on base percentages are negligibly different. However, look at the supporting casts for both men. Aaron had Hall of Fame 3B Eddie Matthews in the lineup with him for half of this decade, but Killebrew only played with Rod Carew, who wasn't someone who could protect him from being passively pitched around, hence his walk totals being in the stratosphere.
Speaking of stratosphere, Aaron played at Atlanta-Fulton stadium for 1/2 of this era, they called it "The Launching Pad" because of how the ball flew.
Dyhard:Homecoming Week said 05/08, 07:55 AM
Some of the voters for the All-Star actually know what they are doing. Most have some clue, some don't, and a little bit of fans actually know a ton about the players, and are able to determine the players talent, and vote for the best players.
Killebrew most likely wasn't a starting player when he made the All-Star game, so the coaches most likely put him into the All-Star game because of that OBP.
So Killebrew had more HR, but that doens't make a much difference. RBI is a big factor of the game and scoring runs, and when he has 16 more RBI, that can make 16 more wins for Aaron's own team.
Those really aren't the stats that he would get. He would probably get less HR, and less RBI. They might be adjusted, but you don't know for sure that he will get this total of RBIs and HRs.
Hank Aaron might've had Eddie Matthews on the team, but how does that inhance Aaron's OBP and BA? That doens't really seem like a good debate tool. It might be a reason why he has more RBIs, but the rest is up to Aaron.
Aaron was a great HR hitter, but since he never really had good HR totals for a season, that is the reason his HR total is down. Aaron had more RBIs...
Out of room.
thehemogoblin- Gone said 05/08, 10:51 AM
RBI's a big factor... and Killebrew played on teams that weren't that good. There weren't people on in front of him as much as there was for Aaron. Can't score anyone else if they're not on the basepaths. Killebrew's larger home run total indicates that he did his job, but the people before him didn't.
They're straight averages, how can you say he won't get them? All I did was divide his statistics by the amount of games he played and then multiplied them by the amount of games that Aaron played.
Aaron's numbers are inflated by playing with Matthews because when you're protecting someone else or being protected by someone else with lots of power, you're more liable to get pitches to hit. So yes, it is a good debate tool. That's why Bonds had Kent batting behind him in San Francisco for many years.
Aaron may have been a good home run hitter, but Killebrew was flat out a better one.
Dyhard:Homecoming Week said 05/08, 07:12 PM
HR's aren't a big factor in determining good hitters. It is how many times they get on base, and get hits. Plus, it is how many times they score Rbis and runs.
Aaron had more RBIs and thet is one reason why I picked him. I also picked him because he was a great player, and he had a good BA for the decade, a .308 BA, and the lowest OBP that Aaron had was a .352, which was higher than Killebrew's lowest OBP which was .348. Not a big difference, but that still means that Aaron got on base more.
How can you say that he will get them? He can have less, and he can have more. Averages don't always happen. I don't think that he would continue at his pace, and have that many HR or RBI.
I know what you did, but they aren't always going to happen.
So since Aaron played with ONE guy, that means that Aaron's stats are inflated, even though Killebrew played with Rod Carew? How does that work? His stats aren't going to be inflated because he played with Matthews.
Aaron was the best hitter from 1960-1969.
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Comments (16) Add A Comment
Good luck, Dyhard.
thehemogoblin- Gone
The University Of, OR
Total Comments (29510)
Good luck, thehemogoblin.
Dyhard:Homecoming…
Germantown, WI
Total Comments (32445)
Killer. Yeah, baby. Finally, some recognition.
GaretJax is Richard…
Saint Paul , MN
Total Comments (866)
hemo, you may be great at TDing, but this could shape up to be a blowout. Your gunna have to argue the hell outta this
Nomarfan5
Oak Park, IL
Total Comments (4563)
I noticed. But hey, he said he wanted Aaron, and I respected that.
thehemogoblin- Gone
The University Of, OR
Total Comments (29510)
Thank you hemo.
Dyhard:Homecoming…
Germantown, WI
Total Comments (32445)
Awwwww, your such a sweet guy Hemo!
Nomarfan5
Oak Park, IL
Total Comments (4563)
Waiting for final argument.
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (21440)
AVERAGES HAPPEN IN THE END. ALWAYS.
thehemogoblin- Gone
The University Of, OR
Total Comments (29510)
HE PLAYED WITH CAREW FOR THREE YEARS, and won the MVP in one of them. That's what Killebrew would be IF HE HAD SUPPORT.
thehemogoblin- Gone
The University Of, OR
Total Comments (29510)
If if's and buts were candy and nuts every day would be Christmas. Vote right.
Hemo, You went first and took Killebrew?
Cowboys-Celtics-Chis…
Middle, TN
Total Comments (17005)
If if's and buts were candy and nuts every day would be Christmas. Vote right.
Hemo, You went first and took Killebrew?
Cowboys-Celtics-Chisox | 05/09/08, 04:22 AM
Here's the thing, he asked for Aaron, because he had the option to go first.
thehemogoblin- Gone
The University Of, OR
Total Comments (29510)
Fantastic throwdown. I'm going with Hemo. Bring up all star games is really a weak point. Hemo brings up a fantastic point with the lack of support in the lineup for Killebrew.
LoS-I Am Torgo
Kaukauna, WI
Total Comments (3432)
Hitter=average. Nowhere has anyone cited Hank's lifetime batting average or even his year to year averages, just his HR and RBI. I am not impressed with a guy whose best average of his career was .288.
Cassidy's Pumpkins 4…
Whatsittoya, NO
Total Comments (14035)
Vote to hemo, surprise choice, and great arguments.
dudeman is gone.
Total Comments (16599)
Hitter=average. Nowhere has anyone cited Hank's lifetime batting average or even his year to year averages, just his HR and RBI. I am not impressed with a guy whose best average of his career was .288.
Cassidy's Keibler is Athletic | 05/09/08, 02:41 PM
So you'd rather have John Olerud than Jim Thome?
thehemogoblin- Gone
The University Of, OR
Total Comments (29510)
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