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(Cincy) said 06/16, 12:54 PM
Ok,considering there is only one pitcher who even competed with Young in this ERA,I'll have to go with the "Big Train" Walter Johnson.

Walter won 297 games and lost 191 from 1907-1919.Now there are several factors to consider in his winning pct.He won .643 of his games.

There was a saying in Washington during this time period"Washington,first in politics,last in the American League" so as you can see they was not on many good Senators teams.

Example of how many times he was done over by his own team.

1907:1.88 ERA 5 wins 9 losses
1908:1.65 ERA 14-14
1909:2.22 ERA 13 wins 25 losses

Now if you're a pitcher,wouldn't this just come off as despicable?How many countless more games could he have won?

Yes Young had 76 SHO,but Johnson had 86 in 376 LESS GAMES STARTED!Think of all the better stats Walter would have!He had a complete game in 388 of those 439 GS.In that many less games he had only 189 less strike outs!

Walter's ERA in this time was consistently in the 2.00's and 1.00's.While Young usually hovered around the 3.00's and 2.00's(got in the 1.00's twice I believe)
Walter recorded an ERA of 1.14 in 1913 along with 36 wins and 7 losses while also getting MVP.

(Cincy) said 06/17, 12:04 AM
Ok,enough with the 511 wins thing,yes I understand it's remarkable,but please!We've all heard that stat so many times.

Johnson's 5 best WHIP's & ERA's
ERA:1.14/1.27/1.36/1.39/1.55
WHIP:0.780/0.908/0.933/0.954/0.969

Young's 5 best WHIP's & ERA's
ERA:1.26/1.62/1.82/1.93/1.97
WHIP:0.867/0.893/0.937/0.969/0.972

So those are 2 categories I say Johnson has great advantages on.

Cy Young struck out 200 men in a season twice.For good measure,Johnson struck out 300 men in a season twice.

In those 13 season form 1907-1919,Johnson won 20 games 10 time or 77% of the time.In Young's entire long career,he won 20 games 15 times,so that stat about nulifies itself.

Over Young's career he had a .62 win pct.Johnson,playing for miserable Senators teams,had a .64 winning pct,and that number would have been much better if he had played for a contender.

Another interesting stat I'd like to point out:Though the ball was livelier in Johnson's ERA(though not by much),Young had one season in which he did not allow a HR,in this period,Johnson had three in which he gave up none.

Johnson was noted for pitching as fast as any other in baseball history,it shows in his dominance.

(Cincy) said 06/17, 11:07 PM
Yes,Young won 30 games a few times,but don't forget,Young pitched a lot more often than Johnson,he would often pitch 50 games a season.In his time,pitchers were used until they were rung dry.Johnson did the same,but the think had changed somewhat by the time Johnson pitched.

Ok,here's my problem.No one besides Johnson rivaled Young in this time.No one.So I had to go with Johnson,and his stats cover 13 seasons,while Johnson had many stats that were better compared to Young.

Yes Dyhard,we understand Young had a trophy named after him.Your point is?The Hart trophy in Hockey is named after a player that wasn't the best player off all time.If it was named for the best,the NHL MVP would be called the Gretzky Trophy.In college basketball,the player of the year award was once named after Oscar Robertson,was he the best College B-Baller of all time?NO.The trophy could very well just have been called the Johnson award.

Where's your logic that if Johnson had played more games he would have had a worse win pct?Where's the logic?

And like I said,Johnson could have very easliy have won a few more games a year maybe even double digit more in several seasons.

Yes,Walter Johnson