Throwdowns > Completed

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  • June 16, 2008 08:31 PM ET

The Texas Rangers got the better of the trade: Josh Hamilton for Edinson Volquez and a minor league prospect.

Cassidy's Devil On All Fours (135-82-9) vs Captain Squints (43-43-7)
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39
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Lets b straight up right from the start: both players will make the All-Star game.

This throwdown comes down 2 what you think is more valuable: 1 pitcher or 1 hitter?

Josh has the most RBIs in all of MLB @ 73, 12 more than the nearest 2nd place guy Adrian Gonzalez @ 62.

Josh is tied for 5th in MLB 4 Home Runs @ 18.

Josh is top 10 in batting average in MLB @ .314

He has the 3rd most hits in all of MLB @ 90

In all of MLB he is 3rd in total bases @ 168

He is 9th in Slugging percentage at .585

Know this: Edinson Volquez leads all of MLB in ERA and Ks.

Know this: A pitcher pitches every 5 games. Hamilton plays everyday

Know this: 18 HR, 73 RBI, 47 runs, 90 hits, 18 doubles, 3 triples, 168 total bases is> than a pitcher who pitches every 5 days even if he has a 105 Ks and a 1.64 ERA.

What do you value more in a trade? An MVP hitter or a Cy Young pitcher?

With Volquez the Reds are in last place in the NL Central.

With Hamilton the Rangers are in third place in the AL West which is a suprise considering the Mariners were projected ahead of them with better pitching.

A Triple Crown is not out of the reach for Josh Hamilton.


I am going to stick with this coming down to do you want a pitcher or a hitter.

For a pitcher in order to have a strong ERA such as Volquez has the pitcher has much more control. Just don't let the batters make contact. This is what Volquez has been doing so well this year. He has 105 Ks in 88 innings pitched. Nobody on his team can do anything about that he does it all on his own.

In baseball the very first thing discussed when talking about who is going to win is always starting pitching. In fact, Hamilton's Rangers are a perfect example of pitching being more important than scoring. They are under .500 even though they are second in the 1st in runs scored.

In MLB the elite pitcher is more rare than the elite hitter. Plus the elite hitter is only as good as the hitters around him in the order. If a batter is going to have RBI you need to have hitters getting on base ahead of you in the order. As an elite hitter it is much more important to have somebody protecting you in the lineup.


1 hitter who is doing what Josh Hamilton is doing 4 the Texas Rangers is greater than what 1 pitcher, Edinson Volquez, is doing for the Cincinnati Reds.

Why?

Well for one thing Josh is contributing to his team everyday. When he hits a homerun or gets an RBI its making a direct impact on what determines who wins baseball games: scoring.

EV can pitch a shutout, but if his Reds offense isnt clicking that game, and lets face it, being in last place, the Reds arent exactly lighting up the scoreboard or they wouldnt be in last place, the Reds still may very well lose that game based on what the bullpens do.

That is why I value what Josh is doing more in Texas than what EV has accomplished to date in Cincy.

Without EV, the Reds would just be a worse last place team.

With Josh, as unbelievable as it may seem, the Rangers are only 6 games from being tied with the Rays for the wildcard position(best record of a non-division leader).

The Rangers have the pieces to protect Josh in the lineup as evidenced by his 18 HRs and 73 RBIs.

The Reds can do nothing but throw up their hands if EV pitches a great game but their 26th ranked offense doesnt get him the runs needed


You state it a couple of times that the Reds offense isn't exactly clicking which is true. However, even with poor run support EV still has been able to win 9 of the 14 games he has started (this would be even higher with a good bullpen). This goes to show that great pitching without solid hitting can still garner a good record. The Rangers on the other hand are a prime example, being below .500 with the #1 offense in MLB, of a team with solid hitting and no pitching.

Why is Hamilton doing so well? First of all he is a good hitter? Second he has the other batters around him that allow for him to succeed. The Rangers right now have the 5th highest on base percentage in MLB. This allows for a lot of opportunities for RBI. With Bradley behind him in the order he is allowed pitches to hit.

Which is more important a single hitter or a single pitcher? I am going to go pitcher because 1 can make a much bigger impact without needing others around him also doing well.

The title of this TD deals with the trade. I will trade an outfielder that can hit for a dominating pitcher and a solid pitching prospect every time. Great pitching is rare. OFs that can hit just aren't.


Where have the Reds "elevated" 2 since acquiring EV? They havent. They r the same garbage team they were last yr except now they have 1 great pitcher thrown into the mess.

The Rangers are a better team than they were last year. Just the fact that a 10 game win streak could instantly vault them into a playoff position proves that. Texas only chance 2 beat people this yr was 2 outscore them & they have done that basically half the time w/ tons of help from Josh Hamilton. Thats good enough 2 b within 6 of a wildcard position.

If one player has made his team better than it was last year.....

If one player needs offensive scoring and a good bullpen to help him out....

I would say the Rangers got the better of this deal as one hitter has proven to be more important than one pitcher has to the Reds. EV has been doing awesome, dont get me wrong. Its just that he went to the wrong team if he was going to make them better. The Reds were not a pitcher away, a pitching savior if you will, from getting better.

EV just needs too much to go right around him outside of his control, like runs scored and bullpen issues for example, to be more valuable than a great hitter like Josh.


Which is easier to find a very young top of the rotation guy or an outfielder that can hit in a hitters ball park?

Hamilton this year has been in a very fortunate situation that many outfielders in the majors could take advantage of and put up great numbers. He has been playing in a ball park that is very good to hitters and has performed well. He then goes on the road and his numbers drop off and not just a little they drop off drastically.

Take the top half of the OFs in the league and stick them in that ball park, following Kinsler in the lineup and being protected by Bradley and the results would be very similar. Hamilton is very replaceable.

The last point that I would like to make about this is the Rangers have done basically the same thing for years. They have had good offense and no pitching. This has resulted in ZERO playoff series wins and a
1-9 record in playoff games. They once again don't learn from history. They trade EV a 24 year old ace and a descent pitching prospect to be able to score more runs. The Rangers have proven throughout their history that run producers are replaceable. Pitching for some reason continues to be a lesser priority.

Comments (84) Add A Comment

June 16, 2008  08:38 PM ET
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Good job Squints. I couldnt find you anywhere on FN since you are not on my F list.

June 16, 2008  09:57 PM ET
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I really wanted to take this when it came up, but it seems its intended for Squints. Good throwdownage should come I hope.

June 16, 2008  10:01 PM ET
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Very good first argument Cassidy.

June 16, 2008  10:02 PM ET
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Without Josh Hamilton, the Reds had to call up some phenom named Jay. So it is obviously the Reds.

June 16, 2008  10:12 PM ET
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haha...well thats amusing.

Cassidy...whats with the avatars?

June 16, 2008  10:31 PM ET
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"With Volquez the Reds are in last place in the NL Central."

It sounds like you are saying Volquez is the reason that the Reds are last.

June 16, 2008  10:33 PM ET
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No she doesn't. She makes it sound like ONE SP, no matter how great he is, does not make near as much impact as a position player.

Point well taken and displayed.

June 16, 2008  10:35 PM ET
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No she doesn't. She makes it sound like ONE SP, no matter how great he is, does not make near as much impact as a position player.

Point well taken and displayed.
EFB..... JL | 06/16/08, 10:33 PM

Not necessarily.

June 16, 2008  10:37 PM ET
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Exactly necessarily.

Read the ENTIRE argument again. Cassidy isn't exactly saying better player she is saying hitters mean more than batters. Proven by the fact that the Cy Young cantidate's team is in last.

June 16, 2008  10:43 PM ET
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Yes, but this was also said:

"With Hamilton the Rangers are in third place in the AL West which is a suprise considering the Mariners were projected ahead of them with better pitching."

-- So Josh Hamilton is making a bigger impact on the Rangers? Or is it the fact that they have good hitting Ef? Ian Kinsler? Milton Bradley? HitterS mean more than a single Pitcher, not plural then? We can agree on that. So are you saying Josh Hamilton would have done the same thing for the Reds had he stayed with them? Without Ian Kinsler and company Josh Hamilton would have made the same impact? I think not.

June 16, 2008  11:25 PM ET
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Cassidy's looking good. But I'll wait for all the arguments before I vote.

June 16, 2008  11:30 PM ET
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"Exactly necessarily."

Um...yea...I dunno what that is.

Listen, there is one argument out there - a very good one - from Cassidy. EFB - I know you are itching to pull that vote trigger, being a staunch defender of her argument, but give the whole thing a shot. Maybe let Squints utter a word or something. Or a breath.

June 16, 2008  11:45 PM ET
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Ive said nothing to help either side.

June 17, 2008  12:31 AM ET
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wow um, if anybody can make any sense of what I wrote I will give you a cookie. I must be tired.

June 17, 2008  12:35 AM ET
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Hell with it I don't normally do this but I am going to clean up what I wrote to help it make sense.

I am going to stick with this coming down to do you want a pitcher or a hitter.

In baseball the very first thing discussed when talking about who is going to win is always starting pitching. In fact, Hamilton's Rangers are a perfect example of pitching being more important than scoring. They are under .500 even though they are 1st in MLB in runs scored.

In MLB the elite pitcher is more rare than the elite hitter. Plus the elite hitter is only as good as the hitters around him in the order. If a batter is going to have many RBI he needs to have hitters getting on base ahead of you in the order. As an elite hitter in order to get hittable pitches you have to have somebody protecting you in the lineup.

For a pitcher to have a strong ERA such as Volquez the pitcher has much more control. Just don't let the batters make contact. This is what Volquez has been doing so well this year. He has 105 Ks in 88 innings pitched. Nobody on his team can do anything about that he does it all on his own. His success is his alone.

June 17, 2008  05:55 AM ET
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Very good first argument Cassidy.
EFB..... JL | 06/16/08, 10:01 PM

Thanks. I know that wasnt easy for you to say.

June 17, 2008  05:56 AM ET
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Without Josh Hamilton, the Reds had to call up some phenom named Jay. So it is obviously the Reds.
MDPRIDE111 is Matt Wieters | 06/16/08, 10:02 PM

Just imagine if they had both......might not be in last place, eh?

June 17, 2008  05:57 AM ET
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"With Volquez the Reds are in last place in the NL Central."

It sounds like you are saying Volquez is the reason that the Reds are last.
DetroitFan* BS: Go Michigan! | 06/16/08, 10:31 PM

It was said to counter that having a CY candidate on your team wont keep you from basements.

June 17, 2008  06:02 AM ET
Report Abuse | QUOTE

-- So Josh Hamilton is making a bigger impact on the Rangers? Or is it the fact that they have good hitting Ef? Ian Kinsler? Milton Bradley? HitterS mean more than a single Pitcher, not plural then? We can agree on that. So are you saying Josh Hamilton would have done the same thing for the Reds had he stayed with them? Without Ian Kinsler and company Josh Hamilton would have made the same impact? I think not.
DetroitFan* BS: Go Michigan! | 06/16/08, 10:43 PM

As stated in first argument, second line:
This throwdown comes down 2 what you think is more valuable: 1 pitcher or 1 hitter?

 
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