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  • June 23, 2008 07:14 AM ET

Best Pitcher (1950-1959) Must have played minimum of 5 seasons and only stats/awards from 50-59 can be used NMI Tourney IV round 4

rstowe (228-67-17) vs Denis24 (152-66-6)
6
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Defend your choice only in your 1st argument, we'll debate our picks 2nd and 3rd.

My choice is: Warren Spahn

Here are Spahn's stats/awards for this time period:

145-81 record
2.86 ERA
145 Complete Games
20 Shutouts
14 Saves
926 Ks
1929 Innings
WHIP of 1.17
1 Cy Young (plus 2 other times in top 3)
9 time All-Star
4 time top 5 in MVP voting
Led the league in wins 5 times
Led the league in ERA once
Led the league in WHIP 2 times
Led the league in Ks 3 times
Led the league in Complete Games 4 times
8 seasons with 20+ wins
6 seaons with ERA under 3 (including 1 season of 2.10)
Considered the best left-handed pitcher ever (the award for the best left-handed pitcher is named for him)


My choice is: Whitey Ford

Stats/Awards:

121-50
2.67 ERA
94 Complete Games
23 Shutouts
7 Saves
915 Ks
1561.7 Innings
WHIP of 1.26
1 Top 3 Cy Young (1-time winner after the 1950s, but that doesn't matter)
5 Time All-Star
Led the league in wins once
Led the league in ERA 2 times
Led the league in WHIP 2 times
Led the league in Complete Games once
Led the league in Shutouts once
5 seasons with ERA .300 or under (2.01 in 1958)
4 time World Series Champion

Whitey Ford accomplished all of this while not playing during the 1951 and '52 seasons because he was serving the Army during the Korean War.

And all pitchers who did well in this era deserve extra praise because this was a decade were hitters were known to dominate.

Your turn rstowe.


Ford was going to be my other choice.

Yes Ford lost 2 years for military service so that does hurt his stats.

However, Ford, even on those great Yankee teams of the 50s, never once won over 20 games....not once...his highest win total was 19. Spahn won over 20 games 8 times in 10 years....What's more impressive? Winning 20 games consistently for the Braves or not even cracking 20 wins once for the Yankees of the 50s?

And thanks to mlb.com which can't get stats right for the 50s....I had Spahn's wins/losses wrong - he was actually 202-131, so even though he played in 2 more seasons during this time than Ford he has 81 more wins on a "lesser" team.

During the 50s, Spahn won 1 Cy Young and finished in the top 3 2 other times, Ford never won it in the 50s and only finished in the top 3 once....back then only 1 person won the award in both leagues so, the voters never considered Ford among the best pitchers in the league except once.


"However, Ford, even on those great Yankee teams of the 50s, never once won over 20 games....not once...his highest win total was 19. Spahn won over 20 games 8 times in 10 years...."

Although Whitey Ford never achieved a 20-win season, that wasn't his fault at all. The New York Yankees manager, Casey Stengel was the No. 1 person to blame. Stengel was one of the very few managers to enforce a five-man pitching rotation. To make matters much worse on Ford, Stengel often gave his pitcher at least 6 days rest because he wanted to save his arm for the postseason.

Whitey Ford Averages:
26 starts per season
Over 15 wins per season
6 losses per season

Also, during the 1950s, Ford's .713 winning percentage was the best ever for a starter in a single decade.

I'm not putting in these stats to compare against your pitcher, but after Stengel was fired in 1960, the new skipper, Ralph Houk, returned to a four-man rotation, and after that, Ford averaged 37 starts during his seasons, while winning 20 of them. Just imagine how many total wins Ford would have had if he started all those games that he should have had.


Unfortunately, even if Ford did screwed out of numbers by Stengel, the fact of the matter is Ford never won the Cy Young during the 50s....with that offense of the Yankees 50s behind him, he should have had the highest winning % of the decade...Spahn got his numbers with the Braves "offense" behind him. And unfortunately, we can't discuss what might have beens just what was. If you'd like to discuss what ifs, what if Spahn was a Yankee during that time and Ford a Brave.?
When discussing the best pitcher of the decade, you have to take into account many factors - how were the teams behind the pitcher (leads to wins and losses), was the pitcher ever considered the best during a single-season, the best for the decade and the best ever....Spahn is considered the best lefty EVER - mainly for his work during this decade....Ford is in the discussion of top 10 pitchers ever, however, Spahn is in the discussion for top 5. They both had outstanding 50s, however, Spahn's work for a "lesser" team definitely stand out.


The Boston Braves of the 50s had acctual hitting on the roster. During 1957, when Warren Spahn won the Cy Young that season, he had HOFers hitters Eddie Mathews and Hank Aaron, out of all people, batting for the team. You can't say that the Milwaukee Braves didn't have any hitting, because they did.

Listen to this:
Whitey Ford had a better ERA during Warren Spahn's Cy Young season then Spahn.

Whitey Ford's ERA: 2.47
Warren Spahn's ERA: 2.69

Whitey's W-L: 19-6
Spahn's W-L: 21-11

If you look at the stats, Whitey Ford definately had a better overall season than Spahn.

Ford was a winner. He was a 6 time World Series champion, 4 times in the 1950s. Spahn only accomplished that once in his career, and that's saying something.

Comments (31) Add A Comment

June 23, 2008  07:17 AM ET
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Good luck Denis.

June 23, 2008  07:28 AM ET
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I heard Spahn was a cannibal.

June 23, 2008  07:48 AM ET
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....?

Can't say I heard that one.

June 23, 2008  07:53 AM ET
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I heard he was also a mime on the weekends when he wasn't pitching.

June 23, 2008  08:01 AM ET
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Yeah...well I heard you should both shut up!

June 23, 2008  08:02 AM ET
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It's too bad Newcombe fought in the Korean War, or else he would probably be a candidate for this (and also a HOFer).

June 23, 2008  08:06 AM ET
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This was tough....there are several I was considering......

June 23, 2008  08:37 AM ET
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Only one person comes to mind against Spahn...from 1950 to 1959, he went 199-149, with a 3.63 ERA. Spahn went 202-149 with a 3.43 ERA, so it's still not all that close.

June 23, 2008  08:41 AM ET
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^ Is Robin Roberts.

June 23, 2008  08:45 AM ET
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Never mind...found a guy who went 121-50 with a 2.66 ERA.

June 23, 2008  08:50 AM ET
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Or something like that...I dunno. Rstowe, for your stats, I think your ERA is right and mine is wrong, but I think my W-L is right and yours is wrong.

June 23, 2008  08:52 AM ET
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LIfer - I used MLB.com historical stats, sometimes the wins/losses and innings may be off.

June 23, 2008  08:55 AM ET
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I used baseball-reference stats, but I think I screwed up ERA...I know I got wins right, though.

June 23, 2008  08:56 AM ET
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MLB.com for some reason has issues when computing the stats for the time period of 1950-59....I had issues with that time period for hitters (Mays was off for HRs, games played etc).

June 23, 2008  08:57 AM ET
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I will readdress the stats in my next arugments if needed....

June 23, 2008  08:59 AM ET
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B-r has better stats than mlb.com

June 23, 2008  09:00 AM ET
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That's all I know...kinda weird, all things considered.

June 23, 2008  09:00 AM ET
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I know Lifer but mlb has a function where you can get the stats for selected years.....the only problem I've seen with it is for the 50s....I use baseball-reference.com for everything else.

June 23, 2008  09:04 AM ET
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Did Satchel Paige pitch around this time? If so, his Negro League stats were terrific

 
June 23, 2008  09:08 AM ET
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DS - even though it is not mentioned, this topic is for MLB Only.....it is called out in the rules of the tourney this is for.

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