Throwdowns > Completed
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- June 24, 2008 10:39 AM ET
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stephen. said 06/24, 10:39 AM
The St. Louis Cardinals have been the most *impressive* team thus far - not the biggest surprise, not the best, the most impressive.
At this time last year, the Cardinals had as many wins as they have losses this year - 33. This year, they are 44-33, and they find themselves 4.5 games back from the best team in baseball, record-wise.
Considering all of their injuries, this makes the Cardinals the most impressive team.
Kelvin Jimenez
Tyler Johnson
Josh Kinney
Anthony Reyes
Chris Carpenter
Matt Clement
Mark Mulder
Adam Wainwright
Those are just the pitchers on the Cardinals that are on the disabled list.
Their "ace", and 10.5 million-dollar-man, Carpenter, hasn't pitched this year. Arguably their second best pitcher, Mulder, hasn't picked up the ball all season either. Johnson, also, hasn't pitched, Reyes pitched in ten games, Jimenez in four, an impressive Wainwright in thirteen, and Clement and Kinney haven't pitched in over two years.
Cesar Izturis is on the disabled list, Albert Pujols is now on the disabled list, and Encarnacion's career is still in the air.
Looking at all of these injuries, the "surprise" Cardinals at 44-33 have been the most impressive.
Porkins said 06/24, 11:03 AM
I'll agree that what STL is doing has been impressive, but I think there's another team that has done even more with less- The Angels.
While the Cards have a winning% of .571, LAA sports the 2nd best record in baseball, winning at a .610 clip. In addition, they lead the AL West by 5 games.
Winning 61% of your games is great, but why am I impressed? Look at the players who have missed time on the DL for LAA:
John Lackey
Kelvim Escobar
Howie Kendrick
Chone Figgins
Macier Izturis
Erik Aybar
Dustin Mosely
Scot Shields
Chris Bootcheck
And that doesn't include myriad other inuries such as those to Mike Napoli, Torii Hunter, and Vlad Guerrero.
Through the first 34 games of 2008, Scioscia was forced to use a league-high 18 position players due to injury!
As for pitchers- Your ace John Lackey misses ALL of April and half of May, and your #2 Escobar is out forever...and yet you have the best record in the AL!
Meanwhile, look at the guys you list:
Clement- hasn;t played since '06
Mulder- 7.68 ERA since '06
Jimenez and Kinney never did much in the majors
No one could have expected contributions from those guys. Winning without them isn't overly amazing
stephen. said 06/24, 11:30 AM
One thing I notice is that the Angels have lost time from more offense players than pitchers.
Kendrick has still played in 32 games, Figgins has played in 43 games, Izturis in 56 games, Aybar in 47 games, and Shields in 30 games.
While you're looking at a few Cardinals, I can same the same for a few of the Angels players.
Bootcheck has a 10.13 ERA, Moseley has a 7.85 ERA, Izturis is batting .266, and Aybar is under .275.
Here is a big difference, though.
Bootcheck, Escobar, and Moseley are the only Angels still on the disabled list that you mentioned. As I mentioned, most of the other players have still played a very big chunk of the season.
All of the Cardinals I mentioned are still on the disabled list, that doesn't take into account anyone who may have missed a few games because of injury or have been on the DL earlier in the season.
Ryan Franklin, with a career 4.20 ERA, has had to step up and he has a 2.86 ERA. Isringhausen is trying to return to form after just getting on the DL. A young Kyle McClellan is really taking a big role and has a 2.52 ERA. Springer, Loshe, Wellemeyer - these unexpected guys are playing huge for the Cardinals.
Porkins said 06/24, 11:41 AM
Hold up...Is this about which team has been more impressive, or which team will have guys who miss more games in the future?
The Cards may have more guys currently on the DL, but that doesn't detract from what the Angels have overcome. It's about quality, not JUST quantity.
I'll grant you that Pujols was a big (but recent) loss. And maybe Carpenter. But Wainwright started 13 games before getting hurt, and contributed nicely. How does he belong there?
Now look at the rest of your list. Those guys are marginal, if that.
The games missed by Angels players due to injury have had a much greater impact. With the exception of Kotchman, LA's ENTIRE INFIELD has missed time.
Vlad hasn't hit the DL, but has missed time TWICE due to a knee and finger.
So let's compare:
Overcoming missing production from Carpenter, and now Pujols & Wainwright
VERSUS
Overcoming missing production from nearly your ENTIRE infield PLUS your best two pitchers, PLUS a strong reliever. Lackey and Escobar are MUCH more of a loss than Carpenter and whomever...
Next I'll talk about how injuries have hurt the Angels based on their offensive style and talk about guys who stepped up.
stephen. said 06/24, 12:01 PM
It is about more impressive.
If you put the Cardinals in the AL West, they would be three games behind the Angels.
If you look at it that way, I feel it shows how impressive they've been.
I want to know the last team that has lost time from over NINE pitchers and still been 11 games better than they were around mid-season the year before.
You can talk about how Kinney and Jimenez and others haven't been that productive, but Mulder and Carpenter have both been past ace's.
Pitching wins championships, not hitting.
I guarantee almost no one has heard of most of the players stepping up for the Cardinals - I named a few.
Who are you going to bring up?
Ervin Santana? A highly touted prospect who has been waiting to shine.
You can say Arredondo, but Oliver has experience and has pitched well in the past so he isn't a surprise, O'Day has an above average ERA, Saunders has always had the potential he's showing.
Schumaker is playing good, Miles and Ludwick are playing great, another no-name, Brendan Ryan has played well.
Kotchman couldn't have missed much. He's played in 73 of 77 games.
You make a big deal out of the infield missing time. Try over nine pitchers.
Porkins said 06/24, 12:22 PM
So it's impressive that the Cards would be 3 BEHIND LA? Really?
- LA has overcome MORE SIGNIFICANT injuries
- LA has played a MUCH TOUGHER schedule. LA's SOS is 14th, STL's is 25th in the majors.
-The Angels have a winning record against every team but Tampa AND have a winning interleague record
- The Angels are LEADING their division, which has 3 of 4 teams over .500 despite missing serious production from their top 2 starters and nearly EVERY position player.
-The Angels' style is small ball- speed and contact. Do you what nagging injuries do to speed? That PLUS losing their two ace pitchers should have been a DEATH BLOW to this team, but instead they LEAD the West.
Are you kidding? THAT is impressive.
How many of those "nine pitchers" on the Cards would have been serious contributors? 2? 3? COME ON. You list Matt Clement? Mark Mulder? Those guys haven't contributed in 2 years! They're total red herrings!
Look at the Angels:
Joe Saunders- came from nowhere to be a total force
Ervin Santana- TORCHED on the road last year, but in 2008 his road ERA is 3.10
Despite devastating losses, LAA has the BEST RECORD in the AL.
More impressive.
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| Fan | W | L | T | Win % | |
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| 1 | DetroitFan* BS: Start Stanton! | 132 | 9 | 7 | 91.6% |
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| 3 | Baun-ded=PUCKHEAD | 55 | 5 | 1 | 91.0% |
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| 5 | Foosball | 70 | 9 | 2 | 87.7% |
| 6 | Philly-- www.sportsnoise.com | 74 | 11 | 4 | 85.4% |
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| 8 | Dookie: Here We Go Steelers | 117 | 19 | 8 | 84.0% |
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| 10 | BSchwartz07 | 129 | 27 | 6 | 81.5% |
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Anne V
Brooklyn Decker

Comments (62) Add A Comment
Red Sox
Ortiz
Ramirez
Lowell
Beckett
Matsuzaka
Ellsbury
Buchholz
Trip To Japan
Brawl with Rays
Suspend Lester, Casey, Crisp
THE HUNT 4 RED…
Syosset , NY
Total Comments (96)
I agree RED, but the Sox also have excellent depth. As a fan, I haven't been worried- I guess I expect them to win despite the injuries. Plus I didn't want to pick a homer...
Porkins
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9916)
I say the Rays
Reds Suck
Chilli Town, OH
Total Comments (118)
RED was going to pick the Red Sox if this TD were about pole vaulting. So i think we can wash that one out.
Moondizzle...
New York, NY
Total Comments (8011)
Definetely the Rays, but I will vote for the cards here. Pork, the A's have done so well so far because they have played 46 games against the two easiest divisions in baseball: the AL Central and AL West. They have been lucky to play only 19 games against the AL East, which is by far the best division in the AL with 3 of the top 4 teams in the AL in the east. They have done so well because they have played a cupcake schedule so far.
The Cards are off to a far more impressive start granted the injuries they have overcome.
tbone7 | 06/24/08, 11:49 AM
You mean the Angels, right?
And Considering the AL West has 3 teams over .500, I'm not sure how you can label it an easy division. The Angels are 10-8 against the AL East and 8-5 in interleague so...yeah. Good one.
Porkins
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9916)
In fact, the Angels have a winning record against ever team thay've faced except Tampa.
Porkins
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9916)
2 of the best managers in baseball: Tony La Russa and Mike Scioscia. Not surprising these teams come up.
Coletrain
Total Comments (10940)
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/stats/rpi
The Angels strength of scheudle is 14th and the Cards is 25th. So don't tell me LA has had an easier time.
Porkins
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9916)
they have had an easier time, granted the injuries!!!!!!
The Hot Corner
West Hartford, CT
Total Comments (282)
Like i said the A's have played a cupcake schedule so far, if you follow baseball Pork, you know the west and central have more or less always been slightly inferior to the east, especially this year. The reason the A's are 47-30 is because they have played 46 games against the 2 crappiest divisions in baseball!
tbone7 | 06/24/08, 12:01 PM
Do you even bother to find out what you're talking about before you type?
Porkins
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9916)
id like to see the Angels do that without there best hitter, vlad cuz the cards are doing it without pujols
The Hot Corner
West Hartford, CT
Total Comments (282)
Tbone: Look at the strength of schedule link I posted. The Angels have a harder schedule BY FAR. And yet STILL have a better record.
The worst division in basbeall is the NL West.
The Cards have played 43 games against CIN, HOU, COL, WAS, SF, and PIT.
And if you BOTHER to read my arguments, you'll see that the Angels have had to overcome MORE significant injuries than the Cards.
Porkins
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9916)
a newbie in tbone calling out a guy who has been voted the best overall member of fannation in Porkins?
geez...
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (21607)
an Tbone even though you've been a member of this site since 06, 4 TDs and only 246 comments makes you a newbie.
rstowe
Newport News , VA
Total Comments (21607)
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