Throwdowns > Completed
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- July 01, 2008 02:12 PM ET
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outlaw is Jerry Jeff Walker said 07/01, 02:12 PM
I will go with the Texas Rangers, there ace Vicente Padillia has a good record at 10-4, but has an E.R.A. over 4
Kevin Milwood is 5-4 with an E.R.A. over 5
Scott Feldman and Kayson Gabbard are both 2-3 with an E.R.A. over 4
last and certainly least, Jason Jennings is 0-5 with an E.R.A. over 8
Yes the Rangers are over .500, but this is just a case where a great offense makes up for lack of pitching, that's all I have for now until I know who you pick.
dudeman is gone. said 07/01, 02:46 PM
Well, in that case, I'll take the Pittsburgh Pirates.
There so-called ace is Tom Gorzelanny, and he SUCKS as an ace.
Gorzelanny's stats compared to Padilla's:
W-L: 6-6 vs. 10-4 (Padilla)
ERA: 6.18 vs. 4.13 (Padilla's is lower, he wins)
Ks: 49 vs. 71 (Padilla)
BB: 57 vs. 40 (Padilla has less, so he wins)
I think we can see which ace is worse. I don't even know if you can consider Gorzelanny an ace.
Also on the Pirates staff (includes players on DL):
Zach Duke:
W-L: 4-5
ERA: 3.99
Ks: 36
Paul Maholm:
W-L: 5-5
ERA: 4.28
Ks: 65
Phil Dumatrait (DL):
W-L: 3-4
ERA:4.66
Ks: 51
Ian Snell (DL):
W-L:3-7
ERA: 5.99
Ks:64
No one has an ERA under 3.99. No one has a winning record, or more than 65 Ks (league leader C.C. Sabathia has 118).
The Rangers atleast have a reliable starter to look forward to every go around, the Pirates have no one they can trust. They have started to convert relievers!
The Pirates pitch against the worse hitting league and they STILL are worse than the Rangers.
outlaw is Jerry Jeff Walker said 07/01, 03:01 PM
NOBODY on the Rangers staff(also includes a DL member) has an ERA under 4, the Pirates do, and when you add it up, the Rangers have a combined W/L record of 19-19, which is brought up by Padillia, but he has way too high of an E.R.A. for an ace, Gorzelany is worse than Padillia, but I believe that everyone else on the Pirates is better than the rest of the Rangers listed rotation.
your combined E.R.A. is right at 5
mine is around 5.20, so my staff has a worse E.R.A. which is a better tool at measuring skills of pitchers than a W/L record.
Also you have 1 starter with an E.R.A. that is actually under 4, Rangers have 0 under 4, we both have two with an E.R.A. over 5, and I have one pitcher who is 0-5 with an E.R.A. over 8.
I choose the Rangers over the Pirates and the Nationals because of their high E.R.A., if the Rangers had actually kept Ponson it would be differant, but they have 1 halfway decent starter now, and I can't call anyone with an E.R.A. over 4 an ace. I have a better record, but I also have a worse E.R.A.
dudeman is gone. said 07/01, 05:12 PM
1 starter with an ERA under 4? It's a frickin 3.99!
The Rangers combined W-L record is 19-19, to the Pirates' combined 21-27.
"I believe that everyone else on the Pirates is better than the rest of the Rangers listed rotation"
I'll do some stat comparisons between individual pitchers to clear that up.
Zach Duke vs. Kevin Millwood:
W-L: 4-5 vs. 5-4
ERA: 3.99 vs. 5.08
Ks: 36 vs. 60
Millwood may have a higher ERA, but Duke has less Ks and a worse record in MORE innings pitched. Millwood > Duke.
Paul Maholm vs. Scott Feldman
W-L: 5-5 vs. 2-3
ERA: 4.28 vs. 4.38
Ks: 65 vs. 39
OK, you may have me here. Feldman is worse than Maholm in all categories. Maholm > Feldman.
Phil Dumatrait (DL) vs. Kason Gabbard
W-L: 3-4 vs. 2-3
ERA: 4.66 sv. 4.82
Ks: 51 vs. 33
Keep in mind, Dumatrait was has 10 relief appearances along with his 10 starts. So his stats are a little better because of his success as a reliever, but his terrible starting pitching has those stats down, but not as bad as they should be. I'd give the edge to Dumatrait here.
More to come.
outlaw is Jerry Jeff Walker said 07/01, 05:24 PM
Kevin Milwood is giving up over a run per 9 innings more than Duke, and for the strikeouts, a pop up, or a grounder does just the same, so Duke does a better job of keeping runs from scoring, and the only reason Milwood has a winning record is because of an insane ammount of run support.
Gabbard, according to your stats is clearly doing worse than Dumatrait, and even if he came out of the bullpen, his stats are clearly better than Gabbard's
you admitted I had you on Feldmon vs. Maholm, but that just leaves Ian Snell vs. Jason Jennings, the Jason Jennings that hasn't won a game all year, and has an ERA over 8, so I don't see how Ian Snell could possably do worse than Jennings.
Yes the Rangers have a better record due to more run support and a halfway decent bullpen, but the ERAs just don't match up, the Pirates' starters are giving up less runs than the Rangers, and like a comment bellow said, Ian Snell, and Gorzalany have more potential than anyone on the Rangers starting staff, but I'll leave the rest up to the voters, good luck Dude.
dudeman is gone. said 07/02, 02:12 PM
A winning record is a winning record, regardless of run support.
The fact that he did come out of the bullpen makes his ERA better, he was a good reliever but he's a terrible starter and if he didnt pitch in relief his stats would be a lot worse than they are right now.
Gorzelanny
Duke
Maholm>Feldman
Dumatrait
Snell>Jennings.
The Pirates rotation as a whole posts worse numbers, and is the worst rotation in MLB.
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Jessica Trainham
Christina Parker
Comments (17) Add A Comment
Leaning right but I will wait for the arguments
lakers#1 says ROLL…
Jacksonville , AL
Total Comments (8329)
I'm a huge Mets fan, but I would have gone with them. Our $150 Million man (Santana) is 7-7, Pedro can't stay healthy, Maine is a notch down from last year, Perez is SEVERAL notches down from last year, and Pelfrey is rediculously inconsistant.
YCMFord
Phillipsburg , NJ
Total Comments (415)
These are probably the top 2 contenders for this throwdown... both teams have been very bad. Cases could also be made for colorado and possibly houston.
PhillyFan83: Bring…
Total Comments (794)
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djroxalot
Total Comments (15181)
Santana is 7-7, but he should have a record of 12-5 if he got run support (2 more wins, 2 less losses), and Wagner didn't blow saves (3 more wins). Santana has been pitching well.
GaretJax is Richard…
Saint Paul , MN
Total Comments (868)
as a baltimore fan if you had said baltimore i would have voted hands down... Baltimores starting 5 are HORRIBLE
Scpalo - takes you…
Total Comments (598)
I don't care if you vote against me, I would just like a comment so I know what I did wrong.
outlaw is Jerry Jeff…
Ball Ground, GA
Total Comments (1334)
The Pirates, talent-wise, are much better. Gorzelanny and Snell are just having really bad years, but they do have the talent to become aces in this league.
Bigdleech
Total Comments (10167)
Good throwdown.....you both presented very reasonable arguments and stated your cases well......... I had to go with the Rangers, though......just by a touch.
TenRingsSTL
Total Comments (2239)
I'm not sure where you guys are getting your stats, but in 2008, Pirates starters have a combined ERA of 5.40. Rangers starters have a combined ERA of 4.87.
They've pitched the exact same number of innings, and Pittsburgh has:
compiled a poorer batting average against
given up more runs AND more earned runs
given up more hits
given up more walks
earned fewer wins
compiled a poorer WHIP
given up more total bases
had fewer complete games
I agree with leech that in the long run, Pitt has more talent, but you can't deny that they've been worse this year. The only way in which they top Texas is Ks.
Porkins: Catches…
The Triangle, NC
Total Comments (9917)
I came up with them by just adding them up and dividing, and there are different starters making the starts, we are just talking about the 5 from each team that was stated.
outlaw is Jerry Jeff…
Ball Ground, GA
Total Comments (1334)
and even dude's stats suggest that my ERA is worse
outlaw is Jerry Jeff…
Ball Ground, GA
Total Comments (1334)
Right now, I'm going to have to vote to dude.
Good TD you guys.
Dyhard is off of…
Germantown, WI
Total Comments (32211)
The Oakland A's or Arizona Diamondbacks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
JoseyRamos
Aurora , IL
Total Comments (485)
GorzelannyDukeMaholm>Feldman
DumatraitSnell>Jennings.
---
Should be:
Gorzelanny<Padilla
Duke<Millwood
Maholm>Feldman
Dumatrait<Gabbard
Snell>Feldman
dudeman is gone.
Total Comments (16600)
Feldman should be Jennnings.
dudeman is gone.
Total Comments (16600)
The top 2 for the rangers beat the top 2 for the pirates... Feldman just came off a good outing vs Philly.
PhillyFan83: Bring…
Total Comments (794)
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