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  • July 21, 2008 01:26 PM ET

Lynn Swann vs. Andre Reed

Biakaba is JB (17-38-0) vs T-fo is Medium Pimpin' (127-64-14)
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In my mind, the only reason why Swann is in the HOF is because of SB X. Swann had 4 rec. for 161 yds and 1 td. Two of these catches were "circus" receptions with one being the Levitating Leap. Great catch to be sure, but Swann's numbers simply do not dictate being a game breaker. For those of you who think that SB rings do not put a career over the top, simply look at Swann's regular season stats.

336 rec. 5,462 yds 51TD

Seriously. Not mind blowing. Subject to the Steeler stroke job. I think Stallworth was the best, most reliable receiver Bradshaw had. Andre Reed was much better than Swann. The only reason he hasn't made it to Canton is because of the Bills SB failures. Look at Reed's stat line.

951 rec 13,198yds 87TD

Either the HOF is going to be for elite players, or this argument will continue. In my opinion, Swann has about as much right to be in Canton as Joe Namath. Wide receivers have the most difficult time making the Hall (Art Monk). Hopefully, Reed doesn't have to be 70 years old and get in on the relic ballot.

SB resume got Swann in the Hall, plain and simple. If you gave me the choice as to whom I would want on my team, I take Reed.


I'll make my first argument simple then present the facts in 2 and 3.

You are caught up completely in the mind-numbing stats-only line of thought here. Sports, in particular football, is far more than a print out of numbers, where career totals in yards, or catches, or other yada is all you have to base your argument on.

I would hazard a guess that the ONLY footage of Swann you have seen would be that of his outstanding Super Bowl performances. The fact is, those were not rare occurences, that was Lynn Swann's style of play. He consistently made beautiful acrobatic catches in an era where the running game was considered vastly more important than the pass...on a team that flat out cherished the run. Hell, Franco Harris and Rocky Blier BOTH rushed for 1,000 yards the same season.

The Hall of Fame exists to recognize the careers of those who truly excelled at the game of football...and believe me Swann was excellent and deserves Hall of Fame recognition for his beautiful game every bit as much as Gale Sayers at running back.

Do I think Reed belongs in the Hall? Absolutely...but don't be ignorant of one of the game's elite talents of all time.


Lynn Swann was an acrobat who made great catches. The Steelers dynasty, arguably the best ever. However, Swann was soft. He was prone to concussions. He is there for SB production and that's it. His regular season stats are a joke. Just because you can jump up in the air and do Swan Lake, doesn't put you into the HOF. Steeler hype does.

Andre Reed has the third most receiving yards in SB history. He is second with 27 rec. He's not in the HOF because of SB failures by the Bills, which has nothing to do with Reed's career. The guy ran flawless patterns and was the bullet in the K-Gun O that Buffalo ran. He and Reich put on a clinic in the Comeback agains the Oilers.

Funny thing is, this should be a moot point. He should have been in on the first ballot. Things aren't looking so good these days for WR's when Carter didn't get in the first time. What does it take?

Take away the rings and style points and Swann has an average career at best. 5,462 is a HOF number? Swann did nothing to revolutionize the game ala Sayers. Two different stories. He didn't even have a 1,000 yd season. He benefited from being on a dynasty.


How exactly did he benefit from being on a dynasty? Especially on a team that had so many weapons, and on which Franco Harris was the #1 option. Take a look at how the ball and TD's were spread around over the 8 years Swann was a WR (these numbers from just those years):
Harris - 11,205 Yards - 86 TD's
Stallworth - 6,799 Yards - 55 TD's
Bleirer - 5,035 Yards - 25 TD's
Bradshaw - 1086 yards - 16 TD's (rushing stats only)
not to mention that through the air, Bradshaw also conected for just under 9000 yards and 63 TD's to players other than those mentioned here.

What that adds up to is an awful lot of talent to spread the yards and TD's to, and of course, the run came first.

Reed played in a pass-happy offense that suited his across the middle style. It's been mentioned that he had to share with Lofton, but they only played together 4 years out of 15 Reed played with the Bills.

Swann had better career numbers in yards per catch as the ultimate deep threat.

Finally, you act like Reed will never get in the Hall. He's only been eligible for 3 years! Swann retired in 1982 and didn't get in until 2001. That's 19 years. Hardly the waltz you make it out to be.


Here's a couple of stat lines, although you argue stats don't matter. SB rings are impressive, it's the cherry on top of the cake, but overall play HAS to factor in.

535 rec 6,334 50TD
563 rec 8,111 44TD

First is Haywood Jeffires. He has 1 less TD than Swann but 199 more rec. and 872 more rec. yards. Second is Webster Slaughter who has 227 more rec. and 2,649 more rec. yards

I could argue that they should have had better numbers, but Jeffires was in the run and shoot and had Ernest Givins and Curtis Duncan "stealing" catches. Poor Slaughter had to contend with Langhorn, Newsome, and Brennan. And, then Jeffires when he was an Oiler. That argument can go both ways.

Nepitism is why Swann is a HOFer. The voters couldn't put in Stallworth without acknowledging Swann. And they satisfied their perennial erector set for the 70's Steelers. It should come down to performance overall, not just one aspect of someone's game. Heck, with the SB rationale, Tom Rathman should be a HOFer..he has three rings.


Oh, stats matter, just don't be blinded by them. I went to the research last night and found these stats that DO matter:

Reed played in a pass happy offense. During the Jim Kelly/Reed years the Bills attempted 4779 passes - an AVERAGE of 434 a year. Bradshaw only reached that many attempts once his ENTIRE career and Bradshaw/Swann years resulted in 2666 attempts. That's MORE THAN 100 attempts less per season.

Take it a step further. Reed's 718 catches accounted for 24% of Kelly's completions. Swann's number? 22.5% of Bradshaw's completions. That's virtually identical. AND that does not account for the fact that Reed was the de facto #1 choice at WR his entire career. Swann had to battle with fellow HoF'er Stallworth. I could find no stat that gave the WR targets Reed and Swann had, but there had to be significantly more to Reed based on the fact that Kelly had 2113 MORE ATTEMPTS than Bradshaw. More targets=more catches/yds.

Finally, you diminish Super Bowl performance, the true mark of a champion. If the Bills had WON some of those games, people might wonder why Irvin wasn't in.

Swann 364 SB yds (2nd) - 4 Rings - 1 MVP
Reed 323 yds (3rd) - 4 losses - 0 MVP

Comments (35) Add A Comment

July 21, 2008  01:28 PM ET
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Swann's career high in receiving yards was 880

July 21, 2008  01:43 PM ET
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Whoa.....I thought this was an Anti-Bills Td.

July 21, 2008  01:50 PM ET
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Ive said this before.....Different players get in the HOF for different reasons.

Swann, Bradshawn, Aikman, and Emmitt all got in cause of SB wins

Brett and Marino got in cause of Records

Kelly got in for being a great QB and the Bills SB runs

Tarkenton got in cause of stats

Namath got in cause of a SB win

But out of the 2 WR's, just Swann and Reed......Reed is hands down the better WR. Plus he had to play oppositte of James Lofton who caught EVERYTHING, always. He still put up those numbers with Lofton and Thurman eating into his REC stats

July 21, 2008  01:59 PM ET
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Goodell, you are insane with your Reed - love. Ever hear of a guy named, um, John Stallworth? or a running back named Franco Harris? You can find out more in Canton, Ohio if you need to.

July 21, 2008  02:11 PM ET
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If the Pro Football Hall of Fame is for players that truly excelled in the game of football, why did Lynn Swann get in before Bob Hayes?

July 21, 2008  02:20 PM ET
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If the Pro Football Hall of Fame is for players that truly excelled in the game of football, why did Lynn Swann get in before Bob Hayes?
TradeAngelos | 07/21/08, 02:11 PM
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Hayes excelled at track and was considered by many as HoF worthy, sure. Perhaps his drug problems had something to do with the vote?

July 21, 2008  02:22 PM ET
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But this isn't about whether Hayes is worthy, it's whether Swann is. My argument is that you should not argue based solely on numbers. Especially in a career cut short by a string of injuries.

July 21, 2008  02:30 PM ET
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Swann is barely good enough to bag my groceries.

July 21, 2008  02:31 PM ET
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Meanwhile, Reed fumbled my groceries all over the store.

July 21, 2008  02:40 PM ET
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Reed is FAR better than Swann.

July 21, 2008  04:01 PM ET
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Bradshaw would be in the HOS if he didn't have a ring.
Savage say's stop hating | 07/21/08, 02:23 PM
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Actually, that's 4 rings.

July 21, 2008  04:14 PM ET
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Goodell, you are insane with your Reed - love. Ever hear of a guy named, um, John Stallworth? or a running back named Franco Harris? You can find out more in Canton, Ohio if you need to.
T-fo Rocks the Shatner Wig | 07/21/08, 01:59 PM

Andre Reed has 951 REC
John Stallworth has 537 REC
Lynn Swann has 336 REC

Reed has MORE REC's than Stallworth and Swann COMBINED T-fo.....

July 21, 2008  04:18 PM ET
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Once again Commish, you are simply playing a numbers game rather than looking at the player.

July 21, 2008  04:55 PM ET
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Once again Commish, you are simply playing a numbers game rather than looking at the player.
T-fo Rocks the Shatner Wig

Your killin me T-fo......

How else do you judge "skill players"......??? If it was a TD about Montana vs Kelly, you would have to bring up SB wins since thier numbers are comparable or remotely comparable

If you were TD'in about who was the better RB.......OJ or Jim Brown, you would bring in the fact that Brown averaged over 100 yards per game, while OJ was around the 80 yard mark.

Numbers are always the defining factor when initially judging a player, with SB's, leadership and those other things as tie breakers.

July 21, 2008  05:05 PM ET
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You will see in argument 3

July 21, 2008  05:22 PM ET
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Ok T-fo............I'll read it. But you will have to put together the best arguement in the history of fannation to even get me to THINK about chaning my mind

July 21, 2008  06:12 PM ET
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ok, reed might belong in the hall, but here's why i'm voting right....

swann belongs too

you can't discredit his super bowl performances. also, in his extremely short career, Swann:
led league in receiving TDs in 1975
top 10 three times in rec TD
top 10 twice in receptions
top 10 three times in yards and yds/game

Reed:
4 top tens for yards
5 top tens for TDs
3 top tens for yards/game
5 top tens for receptions
0 times led the league in ANY category

so in his 7 more years, 3 more years in top ten for receptions, 2 more years in top ten for TDs, 1 more year in yards, the same amount for ypg

July 21, 2008  06:22 PM ET
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Reed:
4 super bowls: 0 TDs
5 conference championships: 1 TD
19 games
14.5 ypr in playoffs
9 TDs


Swann:
4 super bowls: 3 TDs (even counting the one with 0 receptions due to Bradshaw completing 9 passes)
5 conference champs: 2 TDs
16 games
18.9 ypr in the playoffs,
9TDs

July 21, 2008  06:45 PM ET
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So this week, SB's mean something to the faithful at fannation. Swann's regular season stats matter. The 70's Steelers were a great dynasty but you can't reward an individual that was on a great team with the HOF for a team effort. Stallworth played lights out in the SB against the Rams because Swann was concussed in the first half.

 
July 21, 2008  06:52 PM ET
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Goodell is right. Swann is in the HoF for that Super Bowl, and his tendency to make occasional highlight reel grabs. As an actual receiver, he was nothing special at all.

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