- 12/24/2008, 06:00PM ET
wtnelson = Big Chief said 12/24, 06:00 PM
These are in no particular order:
1. Roger Clemens
Say what you want about steroids, Clemens was as good as advertised, if not better. 7 Cy Youngs, 1 AL MVP, 354 wins, 4,672 strikeouts, and great in the postseason. Not only did he dominate the AL, he went to the NL late in his career, and won a Cy Young there, facing new batters.
2. Greg Maddux
Perhaps the only guy in history that could be called a "crafty right-hander". 355 wins, 3,371 strkeouts, and he did it all without being a power pitcher. 19 Gold Gloves, 4 Cy Youngs, 8 All-Star Games.
3. Randy Johnson
5 Cy Youngs, NL Triple Crown Winner, 10 All-Star Games, World Series MVP, and will likely have over 300 wins before his career is over. 4,789 strikeouts to go with one perfect game.
4. Tom Glavine
Maddux's partner, the "crafty left-hander". 10 All-Star Games, 2 Cy Youngs, a World Series MVP, and a 300-game-winner.
5. Steve Carlton
3-time World Series Champion, 329 career wins, 10-time All-Star, Rawlings Gold Glove Winner, 4-time Cy Young winner, Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 1994.
CuntryBlumpkin said 12/24, 09:16 PM
Since yours isn't in order, mine won't be either.
1. Greg Maddux- 4 straight Cy Youngs, a World Series Ring, the most wins of any pitcher alive. I don't think any body can deny his belonging on this list.
2. Roger Clemens- If you ignore the steroids, he had a great career, and number 3 on the strikeout list, Ignore the steroids, and again we are in agreement
3. Steve Carlton- I don't think anyone would exclude him from their list.
4. Replace Tom Glavine with Pedro Martinez-
Pedro posted a career record of 214-99, the win total is down, but the winning percentage is great, and I think his 2.91 career ERA, and 3117 K's make up for the wins. Pedro also is an 8 time All Star, 3 time Cy Young winner, 3 time TSN pitcher of the year, and he won the AL pitching triple crown once. Pedro has lead the league in ERA 5 times, and winning percentage twice, and he has the best active winning percentage.
5. Randy Johnson- Trust me, I would love to put John Smoltz or Glavine here, but the man dominated the game, I can't disagree with you on this one.
I'm sorry for only one change, but I think that there is enough debate for them.
wtnelson = Big Chief said 12/25, 01:45 PM
I had an incredibly difficult time leaving Pedro off of this list, but, in the end, I just couldn't ignore Glavine.
Glavine is a guy that, for most of his career, really flew under the radar. It's not his fault. Anybody would have when Greg Maddux is your partner in crime. However, Glavine proved himself to be one of the game's all-time greats in Atlanta and New York.
Glavine and Martinez have remarkably similar statistics. Pedro has a lower ERA, Glavine has more wins. Both have multiple Cy Young's and TSN Pitcher of the Year awards. Remarkably, Glavine has averaged 15 wins per year for 22 years, and that includes an injury-plagued 2008.
What ultimately makes me take Glavine over Pedro is the durability factor. In 22 years, Glavine had two in which he didn't make 25 starts, one during his rookie season, and one when he was 42 years old. Pedro has had 4 in 16 years, not counting 1992, when he made one start. To me, a guy that you can count on year in and year out to take the ball every 5th day for 22 years is more valuable than someone who struggles with injuries. Such is the life of a power pitcher like Pedro.
CuntryBlumpkin said 12/25, 04:04 PM
The only thing that Glavine has done more than Pedro is accumulate wins(which will happen when you play for the Braves during the 90s), and he did better staying Healthy.
Pedro has the following career numbers.
214-99, a .684 winning %, a 2.91 ERA, 3117 strikeouts
compared to Glavine's
305-203, a .600 winning%, a 3.54 ERA, 2607 strikeouts
Pedro did all of that while pitching for 5 fewer seasons.
Pedro has a .84 on winning percentage, which is good for 7th all time and best active.
Pedro has a .63 advantage in career ERA
Pedro has 510 more strikeouts in 5 fewer seasons than Glavine.
Look, Glavine was my all time favorite pitcher, but he was overshadowed by Maddux, and in some seasons Smoltz, but Pedro has been a far more dominating pitcher in his career than Glavine.
Both of these guys are first ballot HOFers, but give me Pedro any day.
The only thing you have on me is wins, but that is a tad bit of an overrated stat for a pitcher, and the fact that Glavine did a better job of staying healthy, but Pedro did a better job of dominating.
wtnelson = Big Chief said 12/25, 09:22 PM
Wins are an overrated stat, but you simply can't argue that Pedro's win numbers weren't inflated in his time with the Sox. Sure, the Braves in the 90's were great. The Red Sox in the late 90's and into this decade were much better, though.
Strikeouts are also an overrated stat. You have to understand that Glavine and Pedro are far different pitchers. It's great to be able to strike people out as a power pitcher, but that's no better than being able to get groundball. In fact, the groundball is usually better. It doesn't look as good in a box score, but it saves the pitcher's arm, allows him to go deeper into games, and can yield a double play if the pitcher needs one.
Glavine did a better job of staying healthy. That fact can't be overstated. It's simple. A healthy pitcher is far more valuable than an injured pitcher. Pedro was great, and he could dominate. Glavine was great, he just wasn't as 'sexy' of a pitcher as Pedro was. I'll take the guy that I can count on to take the ball every 5th day.
Merry Christmas, and please keep our troops in your prayers, folks!
CuntryBlumpkin said 12/25, 11:30 PM
Playing with the Sox did help Pedro's wins, but 7 years is a far cry from the 12 straight years Glavine pitched for the Braves when they were dominated the NL East.
Strikeouts are a tad bit overrated, but not as overrated as wins for a pitcher. Pedro threw over 500 more strikeouts in fewer seasons than Glavine, but Pedro also had a much better WHIP over his career than Glavine in doing so.
Glavine has a career WHIP of 1.314, which isn't that great, and he has never had a WHIP under 1 for a season.
Pedro has a career WHIP of 1.051, which is pretty damned good, and he had 6 seasons not counting his rookie season of a WHIP under 1, including an unheard of .737 in 2000.
So as you can see, Pedro was not only better at striking batters out, he was much better at keeping runners off base.
Pedro also was far more controlled with his pitching.
Glavine amassed 1500 walks in his career compared to the 752 by Pedro.
You win in wins, but Pedro wins in nearly everything else, from ERA to WHIP to K's, to fewer Walks.
As much as it hurts me to say this, Pedro has had a better career than Tom Glavine.
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