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  • 08/04/2009, 12:08PM ET

Puckhead Tourney #3 Rnd 1: All-vagabond team

Johnny_D (11-6-0) vs LGP: Pensational! (47-9-0)
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Make the best All-Time team of 7 forwards, 4 defensemen, and 2 goalies who played on at least 4 different NHL teams.

Franchise name/location changes do NOT count as a team change (ie: Nordiques and Avalanche count as the same team)

No position requirement for the forwards (ie: you can have all 7 be centers if you wish)

Order does NOT matter


My Team...

Forwards
1. Wayne Gretzky (EDM, LA, STL, NYR)
2. Andy Bathgate (NYR, TOR, DET, PIT)
3. Jari Kurri (EDM, LA, NYR, ANH, COL)
4. Brett Hull (CAL, STL, DAL, DET, PHO)
5. Sergei Fedorov (DET, ANH, CLB, WSH)
6. Doug Gilmour (STL, CAL, TOR, NJ, CHI, BUF, MTL)
7. Luc Robitaille (LA, PIT, NYR, DET)

Defensemen
1. Doug Harvey (MTL, NYR, DET, STL)
2. Paul Coffey (EDM, PIT, LA, DET, PHI, CHI, CAR, BOS)
3. Sprague Cleghorn (OTT, TOR, MTL, BOS)
4. Chris Pronger (HAR, STL, EDM, ANH) - soon to be PHI too

Goalies
1. Dominik Hasek (CHI, BUF, DET, OTT)
2. Jacques Plante (MTL, NYR, STL, TOR, BOS)


GOOD LUCK LGP!!!


All righty then, here are my changes to what is an impressive list.

Scratch Doug Gilmour for Teemu Sellanne. (WIN, ANA, SJS, COL)

Gilmour was a very good player, but simply put, Selanne is on an entirely different level.

Let's look at their stats:

Games:
Gilmour-1474
Selanne-1132

Goals:
Gilmour-450
Selanne-579

Assists:
Gilmour-964
Selanne-633

Points:
Gilmour-1414
Selanne-1212

Goals per game:
Gilmour-0.31
Selanne-0.51

Points per game:
Gilmour-.959
Selanne-1.07

All-star Games:
Gilmour-2
Selanne-10

Selanne is a goal scoring machine! Once scoring 76 goals as a rookie, he scored 40 or more goals 7 times. Gilmour did it once.

Selanne led the League in goals 3 times and twice led the League in goals per game. Gilmour? Not once in either category.

Change #2

Scratch Sprague Cleghorn for Tim Horton. (TOR, NYR, PIT, BUF)

The Hockey News ranks it's 100 all time best NHL players.

Cleghorn is 88th
Horton is 43rd

Horton was a 7 time All-Star and is among the top defensemen of all time. He was named 1st Team All-Star 3 times and 2nd Team All-Star 3 times.

Your team is very good. Mine is just better with Selanne and Horton.


Gilmour vs. Selanne

Selanne has slightly better offensive numbers in the regular season... per game gets about 9 more points.

Gilmour's defense is far better and he plays a more intense/physical game (nicknamed "Killer" on the Blues). I would easily give up 9 points for that

Here's proof: Gilmour has won a Selke as the league's best defensive forward and finished 2nd, 5th, 6th, 6th, and 9th in voting other years

Selanne has no Selke finishes

Gilmour is the better all around player, and it is seen in Hart voting...

Gilmour: 2nd, 4th, 5th
Selanne: 3rd, 5th, 5th

Edge Gilmour (he wins it once if not for a guy named Mario)

The biggest case for Gilmour can be made when you look at the postseason...

Gilmour: 1.03 PPG
Selanne: .70 PPG

Selanne decreases his production come playoff time, while Gilmour elevates his game to a higher level

Gilmour has led his team in playoff scoring 7 times!
Led the ENTIRE playoffs in 86'
Cup winning goal in 89'
2nd in 93' to Gretzky (his next closest teammate was 15 points back!)

Selanne's NEVER led his team

Gilmour is the better all around player and is also one of the GREATEST post-season performers of all time!


"Selanne has slightly better offensive numbers"

Slightly better? Are you high? That's like saying Angelina Jolie is slightly hotter than Whoopi Goldberg.

GOALS ARE MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN ASSISTS! As an old friend once said, "Assists are easier to earn, 1.6 assists are awarded for every goal scored (meaning 40 assists only equate to 25 team goals)."

Selanne is a goal scoring machine and blows Gilmour out of the water in that department as evidenced by their 40 goal seasons, 7-1 and GPG, 0.51 to .031.

How about Game Winning Goals?
Selanne has 92 to Gilmour's 56 AND he played in 342 less games!

Let's not forget, Selanne was an AllStar 10 times in 16 seasons, Gilmour was an AllStar 2 times in 20 seasons. Selanne was named 1st Team AllStar 2 times and 2nd Team AllStar 2 times. Gilmour, 0 times.

Gilmour won ONE Selke in 20 seasons...ONE! Stop the presses!! Yes, he has the edge defensively, but not nearly as much as Selanne has the edge in goal scoring ability. Goals win games...period!

"Gilmour is the better...and it is seen in Hart voting"

Hart VOTING? Grasping for straws here aren't you? Gilmour WOULD have won it? Key point here JD, he DIDN'T win it.


You like goals so much...Both average .33 GPG in the playoffs, but Gilmour out points him by .33!

SELANNE IS A NO SHOW AT THE MOST IMPORTANT TIME OF YEAR!

All-Star selections...You can't tell me Selanne at RW had anywhere close to the competition Gilmour had at C (Gretzky, Lemieux, Yzerman, Messier...)

Cleghorn vs. Horton

Cleghorn:
1st NHL D-man to lead his team in scoring
3 Stanley Cups (20',21',24')
Team Captain (21'-25')
Averaged a PPG 2x in NHL, 4x in NHA, and GPG in 15'
Runner up for the Hart 2x (24' and 26')
This is what a 1930's newspaper said about Eddie Shore after his first Hart (taken from Hockey Outsider): "The consensus was that Shore is roughly on the same level as Hod Stuart, Sprague Cleghorn, Cyclone Taylor, etc., as one of the greatest defensemen ever"

Cleghorn's era was before All-Star Team and Norris voting, but every retroactive list I've seen gives him 2-3 Norris

Horton: NEVER won a Norris, NEVER Team Captain, NEVER lead his team in scoring

The last 2 are close and hard to compare because of era, I give Cleghorn the edge...Gilmour, however, is easily above Selanne after you look at the post season. Therefore, MY TEAM IS BETTER!


Selanne is a no show? 72 points in 105 Playoff games is a no show? They are close in the Playoffs, in the regular season, Selanne is hands down better.

Selanne's competition for AllStar? How about Jagr, Iginla and Alfredsson? Not exactly chopped liver, yet he made 10. Any more excuses for Gilmour?

Horton v Cleghorn

Games Played:
Horton-1446
Sprague-259

Horton was great over a much longer period of time.

Horton's teams won 4 Cups including 3 in a row from 60-63. Said Coach Punch Imlach, "I think Horton, more than any other one player, was the key to those glory days."

From Maple Leafs Legends, "Tim Horton was the ultimate defenseman in his time, and one of the greatest to ever play in the NHL."

And

"So good was Horton that a Russian hockey coach in 1964 claimed that Horton was the most fantastic hockey player he had ever seen."

From Legends of Hockey, "The case could be made that Tim Horton was the strongest man ever to lace up skates in the NHL."

From Proicehockey, "For the next two decades, Horton defined the bruising, reliable defenseman who can rush the puck and deliver a hefty slapshot"

Yes, Cleghorn was great. But Horton was simply better.

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