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- November 03, 2009 05:43 PM ET
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Clemens or Pedro?
BoSox1045K said 11/03, 05:43 PM
Who was the better starting pitcher? Roger Clemens or Pedro Martinez? I'm taking Pedro.
To the casual fan Clemens' career numbers are obviously superior to that of Pedro's , but if you dig a little deeper and actually check out the stats that really describe how dominant a pitcher truly was, (ERA, there leagues average ERA comapred to there own, and whip) than you'll realize Pedro was a better starter than Clemens was. I wont get into numbers right away, I'll save that for my next argument. I'll also try to shy away from the steroid cloud that surrounds Clemens. Good luck to whom ever accepts my challenge. Your going to need it.....
fvkasm2x said 11/03, 06:34 PM
Clemens is a cheater (in more ways than one). I had to get that out there first, since I don't like the man at all. That said, I am going with Clemens as the better pitcher.
Some facts/stats to back up the choice:
- SEVEN Cy Young awards (2 more than any other pitcher)
- Pitching triple crown winner twice
- League MVP
- 11 all-star selections
- 354 Wins
- Over 4600 strikeouts
Pedro:
- Cy Young 3 times.
- Triple crown winner once.
- 8 all star selections
- Not even close to 250 wins
- 3100 + strikeouts
So in these 6 quick stats/facts that I looked up, Clemens wins. Pedro is a funny guy and a unique person. He has a lot of skill for such a small guy. Clemens is a conceited twatbag and I really don't know anyone who likes him. However, if you can get past the personality problems, Clemens is a true stud pitcher. Clemens even has his own video game!
I might be a casual fan as you say, since I haven't dug deeper yet... and perhaps I will need some luck to win this as you suggest. However, you should get Hooked on Phonics. You're going to need it. And be thankful Bubbles isn't here to read your argument.
BoSox1045K said 11/03, 07:21 PM
You're looking at all time stats which are simply aided by the fact that Clemens was able to stay healthier and pitch much longer during his career.( Hmmmmm I wonder why....?) Would you say Nolan Ryan is better than Sandy Koufax because he has won more games, has more k's and awards during his career? Of course not....
Check out these career averages.
ERA
Pedro 2.93
Clemens 3.12
Career winning percentage
Pedro 69 %
Clemens 65%
K's per 9
Pedro 10.0
Clemens 8.6
WHIP
Pedro 1.054
Clemens 1.173
Pedro struck batters out at a better rate, had a better ERA and a far superior WHIP. You have to look past the all time stats. Wins are by far the most overrated statistic for a pitcher in baseball. Jamie Moyer has more career wins than Pedro, so by your standards that should make him the superior pitcher right? I think thought...And Clemens having more K's? Hes picthed over a thousand more innings than Pedro, he should have more.
fvkasm2x said 11/03, 08:11 PM
Why wouldn't I look at all-time stats? When you are talking about who WAS the the better pitcher, you have to look at the past. Should I be looking at certain years only? I have no idea why you wouldn't compare their lifetime stats. It isn't like one guy is 25 and the other 40.
And the fact that Clemens was able to pitch more/longer is a GOOD thing. Why wouldn't you want someone that is durable (medically or otherwise)? More games = more starts for my premier pitcher.
Not sure what Ryan and Koufax have to do with this.
Wins are NOT overrated. Take a guy like Glavine or Maddux and look at their win totals compared to their strikeout totals. Finesse guys have a place in the game and can win games. Wins might not be the barometer of success (for sure there are many other things that make a guy good), but you have to be good in order to win. Crappy pitchers won't consistently win 15 games a year for 15 years. It just doesn't work that way.
Also, you say "I think thought" which I have no idea how to argue against. Like I said, get Hooked on Phonics.
BoSox1045K said 11/04, 03:04 PM
I dont understand what Greg Maddux or Tom Glavine have to do with anything, or why the mention of finesse pitchers was brought into your sorry excuse of an argument .... "Finesse guys have a place in the game and can win games" And...??? You completely lost me on that one. I dont think I ever mentioned anything about finesse pitchers in my argument. I had mentioned how Jamie Moyer had more career wins than Pedro and how by your standards of judging pitchers that should make him better than Pedro. But I never once stated finesse pitchers dont belong in the game. Your arguing on the behalf of Roger Clemens. Whom is the exact opposite of what is considered a "finesse pitcher". I think you owe everyone who took the time to read that an apology for not only wasting 30 seconds of there life, but for also proving once again what an incompetent imbecile you truly are. Any who....Take a look at these numbers. In 2000 Pedro's ERA was 1.74 and the league average was 5.07. Thats a -3.33 difference. Not one pitcher touches that...ever. Some more numbers.97-29 2.17 ERA 1392 K's 0.90 WHIP in 1105 innings. Those are Pedro's numbers 1997-2001. Take Clemens top 5 years, they are no where near that
fvkasm2x said 11/04, 07:26 PM
You are a dolt. Let me break it down in simple terms:
- Clemens has well over 100 wins more than Pedro but you say wins aren't important.
- I say Maddux and Glavine have tons of wins, but low K totals. That is saying some stats are more important than others. Wins are a good thing. Do you want a guy with 300 career wins and 1500 strikeouts, or a guy with 4000 K's and 140 wins? Obviously the 1st selection.
Clemens has high totals in both K's and wins.
The point, was to illustrate that stats can be used to argue any point of view. You can say Clemens' wins don't matter and I can say Pedro's K's per nine mean little. The fact that had to use a whole argument to tell me you can't understand English says a lot.
Some things to know:
Seasons of 17 wins or more by Clemens: 12 (Pedro = 5)
A career ERA of 1.25 lower than the league average for those years.
15 seasons of 200+ innings (Pedro = 7)
I also fail to see what taking the best 5 years of the career does for this argument? It is who was the best pitcher, not who had the best 5 years in the league.
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Comments (121) Add A Comment
Probably going to take a litttle while for someone to accept this challenge. It actually takes a little time and effort not to mention some thought process.....Which you very seldom see on this site....
BoSox1045K
Weymouth , MA
Total Comments (629)
Pedro.
Southern Discomfort
Charlotte, NC
Total Comments (4878)
Good luck Witch_Doctor...
BoSox1045K
Weymouth , MA
Total Comments (629)
Who was the better starting pitcher?
than you'll realize Pedro was a better starter than Clemens was
why you so specific on the part of "starter"? was one of them beast in the bull pen?
just wondering
Skoorb12 #1Kicker…
City Of Champs, MA
Total Comments (2311)
just couldn't do it lol...... just lookin at some of the others was like ewwwwww lol
Witch_Doctor
Total Comments (1098)
This is a no-brainer, especially given Clemens dramatic fall from grace and the general low opinion of him.
BobbyOrrsBastahd
Boston, MA
Total Comments (6272)
If you take the latest opinion poll Bobby, I'd agree. But if you take the actual CAREER, then you're as wrong as left.
Aces Up
Las Vegas, NV
Total Comments (485)
I mean as a starter just a generalization....There both starting picthers and seeing as neither of them never really came out of the pen during there career I dont see how you could think that....
BoSox1045K
Weymouth , MA
Total Comments (629)
I would have to go with Pedro if I could choose one in his prime because he was a rare sight in that he actually cared more about his team than himself. He ruined one of the greatest pitching performances in league history to back up his teammate. He beaned a guy because his teammate was beaned earlier, and ruined a perfect game. Clemens showed that he didn't care about his team when he signed with the Yankees and didn't travel with the team.
bcos4life: 3 oh! 3
Bronco Country, CO
Total Comments (694)
I agree, which is why I will take a shot at it. I hate Clemens. Always have. Even when he signed with the Jays. But I can't deny his ability.
fvkasm2x
Vancouver, BC
Total Comments (1007)
I can't believe you said that, then go on to spell "their" and "you're" incorrectly.
fvkasm2x
Vancouver, BC
Total Comments (1007)
I would go Clemens' way.
Dyhard
Germantown, WI
Total Comments (77559)
Depends on what you are looking for. Want a consistent pitcher during the regular season, then Clemens may be your guy. You want someone to win a play-in game then Pedro is the selection hands down.
Pedro asked to stay in Game 7 in '03 despite being gassed... Clemens asked out of Game 6 in '86. Thats right... ASKED OUT.
BobbyOrrsBastahd
Boston, MA
Total Comments (6272)
Of course the other major problem is the fact that half of Clemens accomplishments are tainted by potential drug use. After all, he completely reinvented his career after leaving for Toronto and won four of his Cys after that point. Certainly seems highly suspect to have such a dramatic improvement over the course of one offseason without any assistance.
BobbyOrrsBastahd
Boston, MA
Total Comments (6272)
vote right
id take clemens over pedro any day
Skoorb12 #1Kicker…
City Of Champs, MA
Total Comments (2311)
Rarity from a Sox fan.
BobbyOrrsBastahd
Boston, MA
Total Comments (6272)
And what happened to Pedro after? Wasn't that the game he blew?
Clemens may know when he is starting to struggle and is out of gas, and knows that it may be better to leave and hand the game over rather than blow it.
Argos: Lets Go…
Toronto, ON
Total Comments (3393)
As much as I hate Clemens, I'll take him and his roids.
Argos: Lets Go…
Toronto, ON
Total Comments (3393)
ERA + = the right bower of pitcher statistics.
No one touches Pedro.
tintedglass
Total Comments (491)
Besides Roger the big game dodger asking out of game 6 as was noted earlier, he also has this little problem with steroids. 2000 by Pedro may be one of the greatest seasons ever by a pitcher in the modern era, period. A 0.737 WHIP in the AL during the height of the steroid era.
Schadenfreude -…
Total Comments (21777)
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