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- 08/24/2010, 09:45PM ET
Fvkasm Hockey Tourney-Remove 2 players inducted into the HOF in the last 10 years
PatsFan21 said 08/25, 12:42 AM
Any player inducted since 2000 is eligible as the 2010 class has not gone in yet.
My first choice is Dick Duff.
Duff was a small left wing, he stood about 5'9" and weighed about 196.
His career high in goals was a measly 29. Some players that achieved that stat last year included Dustin Penner, Matt Moulson, and Jussi Jokinen. None of those players are anywhere near HOF status and arent even NHL first liners.
Duff's career high in assists was splendid either. His career high was 24. Steve Downie and JP Dumont bettered that total last year. And neither of those guys are studs. Now I understand the game has changed since then, but guys still scored in the 90s for points in his career. They still played 82 games.
But Duff didnt always get the whole 82 in. In fact he never played 82 games. His career high was only 70. He only played more than 67 games 4 times. He had a major durability issue.
The +/- stat was only kept for the last 6 years of his career, but his overall total was -41.
In my 2nd arguement, I will defend my second choice: Clark Gillies
YODA said 08/25, 05:37 AM
Duff's a good pick, but I see 4 mix-ups in your arg.
1. Size: 5'9, 196 is NOT small. That's kinda huge in the 50s/60s.
2. Era: With NHL contraction to 6 teams, talent ran deep. 2-way play was highly valued. 29 G was NOT "measley".
3. Durability: Ha - Whaat? Duff played "only" 70 gms because that was a FULL season. Come on. 1030 gms, 18 yrs. Part of 2 dynasties.
4. Plus/Minus: Irrelevant without team context (Plus, Duff went to expansion teams near the end of his career)
My guy to nix: Valeri Kharlamov
1. Size: Mini. 5'8, 163. Zero physical game.
2. Era - 70s USSR. Short schedule, weaker talent than NHL
3. Durability: LOW. Averaged just 31 gms a yr.
And more fragile in Intl play vs physcial Canucks or Yanks.
His softness (and bad luck) lead to his gimp-job in the Summit Series, clean check out from the '73 NA Tour, and the '76 Canada Cup no-show (injury). The "Miracle on Ice" LOSS isn't all on him though ;-]
Poor guy crashed his car (again) at age 33 and died.
His HOF induction was compassion, tokenism, and international politicking gone awry. Bad precedent.
Gillies vs. MR. ANDERSON (surprise?) next.
PatsFan21 said 08/25, 10:47 PM
Duff was small. He was only one inch and 3 pounds bigger than Kharlamov. He had no physical game at all.
The NHL's depth was not as good as it is now. The 2nd liners of today are better than the 2nd liners of old. 29 goals was not an accomplishment nor HOF quality. Tom Webster scored 30 for the Red Wings in the same time frame. Who's Tom Webster? The dictionary guy? Im pretty sure he aint going to the HOF.
Midway through Duff's career seasons were switched to 78 games. He never came close to that.
+/- is relevant when you considered Duff played with some of the best teams in the decade.
VK was one of the most accomplished Int'l players of all time.
He didnt average lots of games per year because of the short USSR season. He was dominant in the league though, winning POY, top sniper and was a perennial all star.He won the league title 11 times!
On to Gillies.
Gillies was a good but not great player. He was a goal scorer who never hit 40 goals. He topped out in the mid 30s every year while player for great teams. So are players with 6 30 goal seasons qualified for the HOF? I think not because I for one dont want Dany Heatley and Thomas Vanek in the HOF.
MMTC
YODA said 08/26, 02:51 AM
You had Duff at 196 lbs. Absurd. In reality, he's not much bigger than Vharlamov BUT could play physical.
As to depth in eras, you're so wrong on so many levels, I don't know where to start.
NHL had 10-12 teams. Then in the 40s-60s, they contracted to 6.
Imagine today if they'd go from 30 teams to 18. Crazy depth. Come on.
11 minor league titles for Valeri? LOL, we're talking HC CSKA Moscow. You're applying a capitalist mentality to a commie 70s system. They weren't even semi-independent franchises. No real playoffs, nothing. Moscow (and the 'league,) was training for Olympic and Intl, like all of the Cold War Soviet sports program.
"Midway through career, they switched to 78 game seasons"
Stop this. They did NOT. Duff played 18 yrs. The NHL went to a 78 gm season in yr 17.
Gillies vs. Anderson
Goals are 1 raw unadjusted stat and you're stuck on it.
Do you realize that entire TEAMS in the 50s scored 180 total goals in a YEAR but that 80s Oilers could pot 425?
While Gillies and Anderson are both undeserving ride-alongers, I'll show you in Arg 3 (with adjusted stats + more) why Glenn's actuallly the true odd man out here.
PatsFan21 said 08/26, 09:42 PM
Duff was 166. Thats unquestionably small.
While there were less teams, the talent was not as good as it is now. More players played in talented leagues like the USSR, unlike today when almost all of the worlds top players are in the NHL.
VK was his league's MVP 11 times, All star 8 times, scoring champ twice, and Int'l Hockey Federation all star 4 times.
Oh stop complaining, the NHL switched to 74 in '67. Duff still had 7 years left in the league at that point. He was very injury prone.
CG vs GA
Lets talk about more than goals then.
Hit 50 assists for CG and he never topped 45. By those standards Scott Gomez and Valcav Prospal are HOFers. So your telling me Prospal, Gomez, Heatley, and Vanek are HOF'ers?
Gillies was simply along for the ride in New York. He was an a nice goal scorer but not someone who could carry a line. He just benefited from a great team around him.
Glenn Anderson hit 54 goals, twice. CG never came close to that. He topped 100 points 3 times. CG never came close. He could also score and pass as he hit 67 assists in one season while scoring 38 goals! He also had a mean streak and racked up over 100 PIM 3 times. GA was much more balanced.
YODA said 08/26, 11:05 PM
I'll be honest, Patsfan. You've had strong TDs lately so I was looking forward to this, but something went wrong here.
Maybe you're super busy, it happens.
But this felt an old days Argos convo. You have few things right, a few things VERY wrong, and a load of false assumptions to fill in the gaps.
You made errors and you won't stop belaboring them. Why not just pull up a couple of internet pages and check some facts in advance?
You're inventing stuff instead of debating.
Talented USSR "Leagues" in the O6 Era? Haha. Really now? During the WW2 recovery?
Argos-level BS right there.
It's frustrating.
You could have brought it with Gillies.
Instead you're AGAIN just going on about "goals" with zero context.
Gillies had physicality, playoff presence, 2-way play, and balanced the attack on their SECOND LINE too. (John Tonelli saw major 1st line time with Bossy and Trotts) in that 325 goal per yr era.
Anderson was the SIXTH best Oiler (at best) after #99, Mess, Coffey, Kurri, Fuhr.
All Glenn brought was superfluous, replaceable offense based on his great TWO centers in a 400+ goal era. Even Esa Tikkanen was more memorable. Ha.
Thx.
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Comments (268) Add A Comment
just wanted to get this up yoda. will put in my arguement in an hour or so
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
Don't forget. Last thing FN needs is another argumentless TD floating around.
LoveItHateIt
Portland, OR
Total Comments (11675)
|
Total Comments (3797)
Send me a bill. I promise to pay under the terms of the Merriam-Webster agreement currently in place.
LoveItHateIt
Portland, OR
Total Comments (11675)
It's been well over an hour! Where is the argument? I want to read it!!! lol
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2120)
working on it as we speak
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
Cammi Granato and Angela James. But then this just becomes an argument of should females be in the HHOF.
Jimmy Devellano, but not sure if builders count here. Basically all he was, was an assistant GM and executive on a lot of teams. Never really had success as a GM in his one tenure.
Of players, IMO, I have Igor Larionov, Cam Neely, Valeri Kharlamov, Dick Duff, and Clark Gillies are all players I don't think should be in. But I think the HHOF has low standards and lets too many people in...
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
Just realized it says players, so take away my builder pick...
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
cant decide on my 2nd choice. i already have the first one
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
im taking duff. i cant decide between larionov, kharlamov and maybe neely of gillies
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
Larionov is basically in just on international play. Kharlamov is in on what he did in the Soviet Union. Neely is an overrated version of Wendel Clark. Gillies I don't know much about...
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
I mean how the hell is Neely in over Clark? Neely was a bit better scorer, but both had short careers. Clark was the much better leader and physical player.
Has there ever been a better fighter or checker than Clark?
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
I mean Clark didn't just fight for the heck of it, he fought to injure.
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
i chose gillies because he was basically a scorer that had a very short prime. he had like 6 30 goal seasons. by those standards the HOF will be very crowded. plus gillies never hit 40 goals. i dont wanna give away to much of my arguement yet tho
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
God I loved Clark.
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
I thought Gillies was more of a checker for the Islanders?
Argos.
Total Comments (5415)
no. he was a goal scorer. he only averaged like 70 PIMs a year
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
I agree about the HHOF standards. Too many borderliners get in.
But I'd keep Neely in all day long, despite the relatively short career.
YODA
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (7420)
My God, Argos.
YODA
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (7420)
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