- 08/31/2010, 12:24AM ET
Rudedog: Believe The Hype said 08/31, 12:24 AM
This is a tricky topic. Don't take the term performers to heart as it's the best singular word I could think of to describe it.
What I want you to consider when making your lists in two things: in the ring and out of the ring
In the ring: They had to have been a great wrestler. Hulk Hogan was a good promo guy, but an average wrestler at best
Out of the ring: They have to be a great personality as well. Jeff Hardy had incredible talents, but he wasn't a good promoter (and had drug issues)
So, with that in mind, here's my list
1. Shawn Michaels - physically gifted and used it to his advantage. Also, as shown in his days with DX, he can be funny as hell and a great promo guy
2. Bret Hart - he's regarded by most as the best technical wrestler in wrestling all-time. A take him a step down because he just didn't have the personality Shawn did
3. Undertaker - another case of great in-ring, but not so hot out of ring. While it may be part of his "gimmick," you rarely see Undertaker do an interview. But his "mind games" he plays are always memorable
4. The Rock
OOR, will discuss last two picks next arg
BM. said 08/31, 12:41 AM
Honestly, there is really only ONE change that can be made.
Shawn Michaels clearly belongs on this list. He was extremely athletic and could do just about any move, but he also had the gimmicks and personality.
Bret Hart belongs just for wrestling alone.
Hulk Hogan is a legend and a huge presence in the ring (mainly his personality, as you said).
The Rock is a pure performer. His wrestling may have been lacking, but his personality and antics made up for it.
I am obviously changing The Undertaker for:
Mankind (Mick Foley)
He had the in ring skill and presence, first and foremost. He did all the things that nobody else would EVER do. When I say that, I can't help but think of when he was thrown from the top of the Hell in a Cell to land on the announcer's table about 30 feet below. And how about when he got chokeslammed onto the thumbtacks? Crazy stuff.
He was a weird guy, and weird is good. He had an old dirty tubesock that he would use as a puppet. He would also stick two fingers of the puppet down people's throats as his finishing move.
The Undertaker was great, but morbid and boring. Mankind was exciting and lively.
Rudedog: Believe The Hype said 08/31, 04:15 PM
Mankind was certainly not someone I expected you to take and Undertaker was certainly not who I thought would be replaced.
Let's look at some of 'Takers notable achievements
*First Hell in a Cell match (10 total matches)
*First Inferno match (2 of the 4 matches)
*First casket match (11 total)
*First buried alive match (all 4 matches)
*Undefeated at WM
They wouldn't keep someone around that was "morbid and boring" with an undefeated record at Wrestlemania. And they also wouldn't let him introduce so many matches.
I'll give it to you that Mankind was a helluva daredevil, but a great wrestler he was not. His most notable move was him falling off a cage. Crazy? Yes. Skillful? No
Undertaker's most favorite moves are actual wrestling moves. He's a veteran and has made the Hell in a Cell and casket matches famous. Mankind can't say that. Sure, he made one match famous, but the type of match itself, he did not popularize
BM. said 08/31, 05:21 PM
Don't get it twisted Rude. You are really discounting the career of Foley here to the point that you said that he has had one good match. Not true.
Mankind has had a career that is more illustrious than that of the Undertaker. Sure they created some random matches for the Undertaker, but:
Here are some of Mankind's achievements.
1. The match against the Undertaker where he fell from the cage and onto the thumbtacks is regarded as one of the best matches in wrestling history.
2. Himself and Terry Funk are considered legends and pioneers in the world of Hardcore Wrestling.
3. Foley actually served as the WWF COMMISSIONER.
4. Everyone knows wrestling is fake, but Foley's fearlessness and willingness to do what nobody else would ever do made wrestling as real as it gets. Whether it be falling from 30 feet and not remembering a thing, to being hit with chairs until he was literally unconscious, he was the BIGGEST RAW PERFORMER in wrestling.
5. He is also an author, and actor, a family man, and was even a contributor to Obama's presidential campaign.
He has done much more for the sport than the Undertaker has.
Rudedog: Believe The Hype said 09/01, 09:16 AM
You're giving Mankind far more credit than he earned
While the Hell in a Cell match was a crazy match, I would never call it one of the best matches in wrestling history. All that went on in that much is Mankind simply kept getting thrown off things. From a technical standpoint, there was nothing special about it
And as for serving as Commissioner, that's also a mute point because everyone has served as commissioner, including Eugene
Most of what your mentioning doesn't have to do with the wrestling in a ring itself, which is different than what I mentioned about 'Taker.
Undertaker innovates matches, Mankind writes books (albeit good books).
In terms of publicity outside wrestling, Mankind probably has done more. But that's not what this is about. When discussing the wrestling aspect itself, I'm certain 'Taker takes the cake.
Great TD MMT
BM. said 09/01, 09:40 AM
"From a technical standpoint, there was nothing special about it"
Other than pure entertainment, danger, excitement, and pain, yeah there was nothing special about it. I looked up one list of the top 10 matches ever, and the Mankind/Undertaker match was #3 on the list. Clearly you are the only one that is discounting this match so much.
"When discussing the wrestling aspect itself, I'm certain 'Taker takes the cake"
Clearly the Undertaker is a more skilled WRESTLER, but that is not what we are arguing. We are arguing wrestling skill AND PERFORMANCE quality. Mankind clearly takes the cake when you combine both attributes. Undertaker, whether you like it or not, is boring. He is quiet and morbid. Mankind is vocal, crazy, and will agree to do just about anything for the sake of entertaining the fans.
- Awful Announcing
- Free Darko
- Pro Football Talk
- The Big Lead
- Joe Posnanski
- The Sporting Blog
- Big League Stew
- Bugs and Cranks
- Every day Should Be Saturday
- Mr. Irrelevant
- With Leather
- The Sports Hernia