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- 10/02/2010, 07:14PM ET
What kind of success is better?
Serial Dex said 10/02, 07:14 PM
In talking about NHL success, the topic of what type of career you want to have.
You are enamored by Toews' Conn Smythe award on route to winning the Cup.
I am more impressed by the repetitive brilliance by Ovie in the regular season and his continued competition for the Art Ross & Hart trophies.
(Obviously, winning is paramount. If you can with the championship in ANY sport, that's a great achievement. Winning multiple times obviously trumps either of our stances, hands down. This is also NOT a TD about who is better of the two players.)
So what is better? Continuous regular season success, or one big run?
The reason why I prefer continued success over one immaculate season, is because people remember continued greatness and achievements.
Ovie has been in the running for the scoring title and league MVP every year in the NHL. Toews is a great player, no doubt... but in reality, anyone could do what he has done. Some examples?
Reggie Leach, Butch Goring, Claue Lemieux, Mike Vernon, J.S. Giguere, Brad Richards
None of those players will be ever thought of one of the best of their time. Ovie will be.
kingeraaa said 10/03, 06:27 PM
1st things 1st,
I thought this was about what was the better success, and you have A.O, as a guy who will be remembered because of his Hart, and Scoring titles, and then go on to say that he will be remembered as one of the best all time, while ALL the other names you mentioned are nobody's that prove anyone can win a Conn Smythe award.
Did I get that right? IMO you are implying that those names you listed are NOT remembered for greatness, and that in the 5 years that A.O has been here, he undoubtedly will be remembered for being "One of the best of his time", and he probably will be, unless he gets hurt, or becomes a huge target.
This is about what's better Hart trophy year after year or a Stanley Cup, and a Conn Smythe.
When ever comparing Brodeur and Roy, the latter takes the edge due to the Smythe trophies he has, and it's hard to argue against, I know I've tried!
A.O didn't win a Hart or a scoring title last year, he's been in the league for going on his 6th year, but he hasn't been to the big game yet.
If you think that repeated Reg season Trophies trump playoff success, the I suggest you speak to Ray Bourque. No Smythe, but 1 Cup sure got him smiling!
Serial Dex said 10/04, 12:18 PM
I'm glad you brought up Ray Bourque. He had a famed career for what he did in Boston, both on the ice and off it. He was a great ambassador to the game, was always in the running for a Norris award, etc... and NEVER won the cup. When mentioning fabled greats, you bring up Bourque, specifically his time in Boston.
His late career move to COL to win a Cup was bittersweet indeed. First thing he did was bring it back to Boston.
Bourque will be forever remembered for season after season of greatness, not for his one cup win with another franchise.
Another reason why I think multiple seasons of contending for the Art/Hart is better than 1 cup & 1 Conn is because of the time it takes to display your greatness.
One cup & 1 Conn requires roughly 20 games of elite play. Multiple seasons of great play involves between 200-300 games (depending on how many seasons we talk here). What is harder? What is more impressive? Having 1 good cup run or being top of the league time and time again?
Johan Franzen comes to mind. He didn't win the Conn (injury stopped him) but his name became house hold because of one 3 week stretch. Not as inspiring as 3 seasons of that output.
kingeraaa said 10/05, 05:04 AM
Thanks for doing all the work Dex!
I am a hockey fan 1st, and know full well what Bourque meant to the game, and to Boston.
I brought him up, as he had played for 20 years in BOS, and made it to the end twice with them, and came up short. Against mighty fine teams I might add.
THEN!
He ASKED to be traded! Here was a man who NEVER wanted to leave his team, and was crying when he was traded, and crying when he won the cup, as it is the 1 thing he hadn't won for BOS! The MOST important thing, which is precisely why he brought it back to them, BUT, it was also the one thing he hadn't won for HIMSELF!
He left for the one thing every hockey player wants, and that's a Stanley Cup! Period.
Now factor in that players UP their game when in the playoffs, and that it's THE hardest Tourney in hockey, where it's the norm to play through horrible injuries, and that it takes more than skill....it takes a lot of endurance and heart, and some emerge as the elite playoff "go to guys" like C. Lemieux. He was well known to up his game come playoffs.
Chicago just blew up their winning team, and I bet every player would rather have that one Cup, then 5 Harts any day!
MTC,& Toews.
Serial Dex said 10/05, 02:41 PM
Look at Big Buff in CHI last year. He had a massive playoffs and garnered some Conn chatter for his breakout performance. What did Chicago do? Got rid of him right away. He had a career defining playoffs and Chicago didn't really care. They knew that his regular season would be subpar again and that his 3 weeks of dominance was a flash in the pan.
There is also something else that athletes strive for, besides winning a cup. That is being the best they can be. Competition is hugely fierce in athletes. If you are a true athlete, you hate being second best. You want fame, fortune, etc...
Look at a guy like Hossa for example.
He was a great player and considered one of the league's best scorers. Then when he kept jumping from team to team in order to win a cup, people laughed at him. Do you think his career is viewed in a better light because he has won a cup? I don't.
Basically, this argument is like comparing guys like Jagr and Fedorov to guys like Franzen and Leach.
Leach and Franzen will never be uttered in the breath as these two, even though they each had 1 amazing Cup run where they were the best player on their teams.
kingeraaa said 10/06, 03:31 AM
Big Buff?
Hossa?
Franzen?
These are 3 examples you're using? None have a Smythe, but you mention how 1 would have won if he hadn't gotten injured, and then the other, was a POSSIBLE runner up to Toews, the guy that won the Smythe! Really? Not to mention, neither was close to winning ANY awards during their NHL careers thus far! Big Buff was a role player, and he's gone now, so great coaching in Chicago. None of them have the prerequisite Smythe, or any major awards for this debate!
You implied that some names you have written in the 1st arg, won't be remembered for greatness, but then go on to list Franzen as a household name?
BTW Franzen wasn't the best on his team! Zetterberg won the Smythe!
This is about what kind of success is better. I'm not comparing a bunch of players....you are. I mentioned #77, because he left JUST to win a CUP!
Toews, isn't the same kind of player that A.O is. Apples/Oranges, and he won the Smythe, because he was THE best player in the playoffs, and won a Cup.
No matter the # of Hart/Ross trophies won, Ovechkin won't be happy until he's won THE Cup! He's that competitive!
Any "great" player asked, will say The Cup is #1!
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Comments (51) Add A Comment
fannation td success,trumps all.
I.M.O.
Total Comments (342)
Agreed.
HOOTZ
Hooterville, PA
Total Comments (1393)
I like how you point out that this isn't about "who" is better but "what". Then end by saying that Ovie is the best haha. Other than that I'm looking forward to this TD. Could honestly be swayed either way quite easily because I am torn as to which I think is "better".
Looking forward to this.
Armada
Any Ski Hill, AB
Total Comments (2188)
Reggie Leach, Butch Goring, Claue Lemieux, Mike Vernon, J.S. Giguere, Brad Richards...These guys are not just anyones...they are house hold names to many. Food for thought Dex...regardless how you spin it, not just 'anyone' wins a Conn Smythe.
Baun-ded=PH in…
Total Comments (3685)
1. The point, is that they aren't considered elite players. They aren't the Roy's, the Orr's, the Gretzky's, etc... They are guys who are/were strong players but are recognized in history for performing big in the playoffs for ONE year.
2. Thx 4 arguing my point before the opponent countered. At least let the opp. make a rebuttal b4 u do?
Serial Dex
Total Comments (261)
Fair enough...if your opponent does not want to argue this I will take this TD in his place.
Baun-ded=PH in…
Total Comments (3685)
Good Luck Dex, and thanks for the challenge. I AM A LONG WINDED, I admit it, and everyone on here should be happy that I'm doing TD's ,as it forces me to into a limited amount of words! LOL!
kingeraaa
Total Comments (4367)
Dex one thing. I was impressed, not enamored by his Smythe and Cup win! I'm not being charmed by Toews.........no matter how good he is! ;)
kingeraaa
Total Comments (4367)
I agree. Not "just anyone" can be the best overall player throughout the playoffs. It takes skill, consistency, endurance, and a ton of heart to be able to play consistently GREAT hockey for a minimum of 16 playoff games.
BM.
Total Comments (61353)
Very good! LOL!!! True for us FN minions!
kingeraaa
Total Comments (4367)
Very nice opening argument kingeraaa. You've come out strong. I'm going to disagree with you somewhat on the Ray Bourque angle. Leaving Boston after all of those years broke his heart. Hoisting the Cup for someone else's team must have been the most bittersweet ending in NHL history. I was a big Ray Bourque fan.
Leaning Right.
HOOTZ
Hooterville, PA
Total Comments (1393)
So what you're trying to say is you don't have a man-love for Toews
Swamp Dragon
Total Comments (13759)
Exactly, strictly a skill ,and love of the game, nothing of nature going here Swamp! :)
kingeraaa
Total Comments (4367)
Out of 40 winners (Orr Parent Gretzky and Lemieux won it twice Roy thrice) You found 6 who weren't elite ( you missed Ranford & Crozier by the way ) But these aren't fourth liners or third liners for that matter that are being awarded the Smythe but except 5 (2 of which are Leach & Giggy )of 46 they are also SCChampions .I'll tell you this if you ask Ovie what he'd rather win a Hart or a SC it's a no-brainer
Swamp Dragon
Total Comments (13759)
Thanks. I won't comment on Bourque, just in case it gets brought up by Dex in his argument.
kingeraaa
Total Comments (4367)
Sorry. Mum's the word on my side.
Good luck to you both.
HOOTZ
Hooterville, PA
Total Comments (1393)
Sorry???? For what? You can say whatever you like, I just didn't want you to think me rude for not commenting on the subject. :)
kingeraaa
Total Comments (4367)
I wouldn't have thought you were being rude. And vise-versa. Ray Bourque's ending was the one he chose. I just wouldn't go as far as to say he got exactly what he wanted.
HOOTZ
Hooterville, PA
Total Comments (1393)
Bourque wanted an opportunity to challenge for the Stanley Cup. When he got traded during the 99-00 season he was 39 and if you recall he requested a trade from Boston..
Save_Me_Jebus: Hello…
Total Comments (1636)
Which is preferable, the MVP of the regular season, or the MVP of the playoffs? The regular season. It's much harder to do. Any player from any team is eligible, whereas a final trip is practically required to win the conn smythe(I believe sakic won the Conn smythe several years back despite losing a round short of the SC final).
giftedkid527
Jacksonville , FL
Total Comments (322)
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