- 01/20/2011, 07:11PM ET
YankeesFan said 01/20, 07:11 PM
You said in this TD (not sure if the link will work) http://www.fannation.com/throwdowns/show/572761-strongest-10-picks-in-the- nfl-draft-2000-2008-that-werent-the-top-10?category_id=17 "Brees is not a better QB than Ben."
First, here is an interesting side note unrelated to who is better: I hear all the time how tough it is to bring down Ben (and having watched him, it is), but even with 3 less years played, he has been sacked 90 more times than Brees.
Bring up the SB advantage for Ben if you want to, but he had a much better supporting cast all around both times.
He's always had a better running game than Brees (Bettis and Parker in 2005, Parker 2008), and better WRs (Ward, Holmes, not a WR but Health Miller), and not to mention the huge disadvantage in defense between Pitt and NO the past 5 years.
Ben averages 20 TDs a year, while Brees averages 23.5 even counting a year in which he played 1 game.
Brees averages 28.3 more yards a game on the career, and averages 3526 yards a season while Ben averages 3214.
Brees also has a higher completion % by 2.1%.
So even with a worse supporting cast, Brees puts up better numbers all around.
PatsFan21 said 01/20, 07:47 PM
As I said in that TD, you are correct. Brees has slightly better stats than Ben in every category.
He has a marginal 2% advantage in pass completion percentage. He throws for 3 more TD per year and thats great. (actually Ben throws closer to 21 TDs a year, so 2 TD's).
But thats beside the point.
Brees plays in a pass first offense. Sean Payton's offense is designed to have a QB with very good stats.
Need some proof of that? Payton took Quincy Carter and Drew Bledsoe to 3,000+ yard seasons, both late in their careers as average to below average QBs.
What's Brees' average for yards a season?
By no means am I suggesting Brees to be equal to Carter, but Brees' stats have a lot to with the offense he plays in.
You can't base a QB based off simply of his stats.
Vinny Testaverde has more pass TDs and pass yards than Joe Montana. Who is a better QB?
My point exactly.
Super Bowls have to be taken into account. Ben has led his team TWICE on the league's biggest stage to SB wins. Yes in '05 he wasnt great in the SB, but he was a 2nd year and was good enough to win.
He could have 3 rings soon.
3 rings in 7 years would be amazing
YankeesFan said 01/21, 01:36 AM
As was stated in the comments, Roethlisberger's stats in 1 of his SB win were the following:
9/21, 123 yards, 2 INTs.
So yes, he has one more ring than Brees, but how responsible was he for winning that ring?
And let's wait and see what happens in the next month before we start saying he has 3 rings.
Brees does play in a pass first offense, but that's because of the QB he is. His level of play demands that the team passes it more.
But not only does he have better stats, which you refute by saying it's his system, he does more with so much less talent. His defense is suspect, his running game is mostly non-existent, and his WRs are not great (Colston is pretty overrated, I think).
Big Ben has a better running game, much better WRs, and infinitely better defense. Yet the teams post similar records every year, except last year when the Steelers missed out on the playoffs.
Most importantly, though, would the Saints have gone 3-1 if Chase Daniel started the first 4 games?
The Steelers had the same winning % (.750) in games Dennis Dixon started as in games Big Ben started.
That should say everything about the importance of QB in Pitt.
PatsFan21 said 01/21, 08:25 PM
Yes Ben's stats in his first SB were not great but consider a few things about that game:
He's the YOUNGEST QB ever to start a SB .
It was his 2ND year in the NFL.
Not bad for a 2nd year player who WON the game.
To say Brees' offense is not that good is BS.
Brees plays with Colston, Shockey, Henderson, Thomas, Bush, etc. There is absolutley no shortage of talent on that offense. Brees plays in a great system for QBs with a great offense.
The system Brees plays in has nothing to do with Brees. As I said in my first, Payton ran the EXACT same system and got almost the same results with Quincy Carter.
But lets consider locations and opponents:
The Saints play half of their games in a DOME. Its easy to put up great stats in dome! Ben plays half his games in Pittsburgh. Snowy, rainy, with a torn up field Pittsburgh. Not exactly the same surfaces.
The Saints play in Carolina, Atlanta, and Tampa. All great warm weather cities, with great fields that dont get torn up due to weather. Pitt plays in Balt., Cincy, and Cleveland.
Finally, Pittsburgh plays in the best defensive division in football. NO plays against the Panthers & Bucs.
YankeesFan said 01/21, 11:57 PM
First, the "best defensive division in football" is only the Ravens and Steelers. Because the Steelers don't play themselves, and the Bengals and Browns don't have good defenses, the point about Ben playing against the best defenses is not that strong, since it's only the Ravens.
Second, while we are on division, the Bucs were a top 10 defense this year in points allowed, so your last sentence is only proves my point.
Also, the Falcons had the 5th best defense this year, so Brees was playing 4 games in division against top 10 Ds, while Ben only played 2 top 10 Ds in division.
You avoided my most important point, which was that the Steelers had the exact same winning % when Dennis Dixon and Charlie Batch played this year.
That right there shows that the Steelers success is largely based off of their defense (# 1 in the league this year), and their running game.
We shouldn't even have to compare stats (which Brees wins in) or SBs (which Ben has a lead in by 1, even though as you admit, he wasn't a factor in his first), because that stat should say everything.
If a team wins the same amount with Dennis Dixon in, the QB is not the reason for success.
PatsFan21 said 01/22, 12:54 AM
So, let me get this straight.
Your arguement is that Brees is better because Rothlisberger because Big Ben has a better team around him? Hmm?
Seems pretty weak doesn't it?
And, tell me, how can Brees' team be so weak, if, just last year, his team won the Super Bowl?
And how can Brees' defense be so bad when they 4th in the league?
Ben plays on a better team, but that doesn't make him a lesser QB.
Ben has won two titles and in 2 weeks, he could have won 3.
Brees' stats are very arguably because of his SYSTEM. Ever heard of a SYSTEM QB?
Brees is good, no doubt. But Ben has PROVEN more.
Brees' playoff record outside of the SB run? 1-2. Overall? 4-2
Ben is 9-2 in the postseason! 9-2>4-2. Thats not all just his team. Ben was the reason the Steelers were even IN the SB in 2005 with an unbelievable tackle after Bettis fumbled.
Brees has 14 career 4th quarter comeback wins. Big Ben? 21 in 3 fewer years. Ben is one if not the best clutch QBs in the game.
So, to conclude, Ill take the clutch, proven winner, tough guy who wins 82% of his playoff games and could have 3 rings in his first 7 years.
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