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  • 01/20/2011, 07:11PM ET

Defend yourself: Brees vs. Big Ben

YankeesFan (89-63-11) vs PatsFan21 (67-42-11)
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You said in this TD (not sure if the link will work) http://www.fannation.com/throwdowns/show/572761-strongest-10-picks-in-the- nfl-draft-2000-2008-that-werent-the-top-10?category_id=17 "Brees is not a better QB than Ben."

First, here is an interesting side note unrelated to who is better: I hear all the time how tough it is to bring down Ben (and having watched him, it is), but even with 3 less years played, he has been sacked 90 more times than Brees.

Anyway:
Bring up the SB advantage for Ben if you want to, but he had a much better supporting cast all around both times.

He's always had a better running game than Brees (Bettis and Parker in 2005, Parker 2008), and better WRs (Ward, Holmes, not a WR but Health Miller), and not to mention the huge disadvantage in defense between Pitt and NO the past 5 years.

Ben averages 20 TDs a year, while Brees averages 23.5 even counting a year in which he played 1 game.

Brees averages 28.3 more yards a game on the career, and averages 3526 yards a season while Ben averages 3214.

Brees also has a higher completion % by 2.1%.

So even with a worse supporting cast, Brees puts up better numbers all around.


As I said in that TD, you are correct. Brees has slightly better stats than Ben in every category.

He has a marginal 2% advantage in pass completion percentage. He throws for 3 more TD per year and thats great. (actually Ben throws closer to 21 TDs a year, so 2 TD's).

But thats beside the point.

Brees plays in a pass first offense. Sean Payton's offense is designed to have a QB with very good stats.

Need some proof of that? Payton took Quincy Carter and Drew Bledsoe to 3,000+ yard seasons, both late in their careers as average to below average QBs.

What's Brees' average for yards a season?

3526 yards

Interesting

By no means am I suggesting Brees to be equal to Carter, but Brees' stats have a lot to with the offense he plays in.

You can't base a QB based off simply of his stats.

Vinny Testaverde has more pass TDs and pass yards than Joe Montana. Who is a better QB?

My point exactly.

Super Bowls have to be taken into account. Ben has led his team TWICE on the league's biggest stage to SB wins. Yes in '05 he wasnt great in the SB, but he was a 2nd year and was good enough to win.

He could have 3 rings soon.

3 rings in 7 years would be amazing


As was stated in the comments, Roethlisberger's stats in 1 of his SB win were the following:

9/21, 123 yards, 2 INTs.

So yes, he has one more ring than Brees, but how responsible was he for winning that ring?

And let's wait and see what happens in the next month before we start saying he has 3 rings.

Brees does play in a pass first offense, but that's because of the QB he is. His level of play demands that the team passes it more.

But not only does he have better stats, which you refute by saying it's his system, he does more with so much less talent. His defense is suspect, his running game is mostly non-existent, and his WRs are not great (Colston is pretty overrated, I think).

Big Ben has a better running game, much better WRs, and infinitely better defense. Yet the teams post similar records every year, except last year when the Steelers missed out on the playoffs.

Most importantly, though, would the Saints have gone 3-1 if Chase Daniel started the first 4 games?

The Steelers had the same winning % (.750) in games Dennis Dixon started as in games Big Ben started.

That should say everything about the importance of QB in Pitt.


Yes Ben's stats in his first SB were not great but consider a few things about that game:

He's the YOUNGEST QB ever to start a SB .

It was his 2ND year in the NFL.

Not bad for a 2nd year player who WON the game.

To say Brees' offense is not that good is BS.

Brees plays with Colston, Shockey, Henderson, Thomas, Bush, etc. There is absolutley no shortage of talent on that offense. Brees plays in a great system for QBs with a great offense.

The system Brees plays in has nothing to do with Brees. As I said in my first, Payton ran the EXACT same system and got almost the same results with Quincy Carter.

But lets consider locations and opponents:

The Saints play half of their games in a DOME. Its easy to put up great stats in dome! Ben plays half his games in Pittsburgh. Snowy, rainy, with a torn up field Pittsburgh. Not exactly the same surfaces.

The Saints play in Carolina, Atlanta, and Tampa. All great warm weather cities, with great fields that dont get torn up due to weather. Pitt plays in Balt., Cincy, and Cleveland.

Finally, Pittsburgh plays in the best defensive division in football. NO plays against the Panthers & Bucs.


First, the "best defensive division in football" is only the Ravens and Steelers. Because the Steelers don't play themselves, and the Bengals and Browns don't have good defenses, the point about Ben playing against the best defenses is not that strong, since it's only the Ravens.

Second, while we are on division, the Bucs were a top 10 defense this year in points allowed, so your last sentence is only proves my point.

Also, the Falcons had the 5th best defense this year, so Brees was playing 4 games in division against top 10 Ds, while Ben only played 2 top 10 Ds in division.

You avoided my most important point, which was that the Steelers had the exact same winning % when Dennis Dixon and Charlie Batch played this year.

That right there shows that the Steelers success is largely based off of their defense (# 1 in the league this year), and their running game.

We shouldn't even have to compare stats (which Brees wins in) or SBs (which Ben has a lead in by 1, even though as you admit, he wasn't a factor in his first), because that stat should say everything.

If a team wins the same amount with Dennis Dixon in, the QB is not the reason for success.


So, let me get this straight.

Your arguement is that Brees is better because Rothlisberger because Big Ben has a better team around him? Hmm?

Seems pretty weak doesn't it?

And, tell me, how can Brees' team be so weak, if, just last year, his team won the Super Bowl?

And how can Brees' defense be so bad when they 4th in the league?

Ben plays on a better team, but that doesn't make him a lesser QB.

Ben has won two titles and in 2 weeks, he could have won 3.

Brees' stats are very arguably because of his SYSTEM. Ever heard of a SYSTEM QB?

Brees is good, no doubt. But Ben has PROVEN more.

Brees' playoff record outside of the SB run? 1-2. Overall? 4-2

Ben is 9-2 in the postseason! 9-2>4-2. Thats not all just his team. Ben was the reason the Steelers were even IN the SB in 2005 with an unbelievable tackle after Bettis fumbled.

Brees has 14 career 4th quarter comeback wins. Big Ben? 21 in 3 fewer years. Ben is one if not the best clutch QBs in the game.


So, to conclude, Ill take the clutch, proven winner, tough guy who wins 82% of his playoff games and could have 3 rings in his first 7 years.

January 20, 2011  08:11 PM ET

im leaning right after a very strong argument. i will wait for left's response but patsfan handled that very well

January 20, 2011  09:31 PM ET

Roethlisberger is consistently better than Brees in arguably the most important quarterback stat... yards per attempt. He's one of only 5 Qbs to have a career YPA of 8.0+

January 20, 2011  09:39 PM ET

voted right

i hate big ben but he is a better qb than brees

January 20, 2011  10:02 PM ET

The Steelers go 3-1 without Ben, then 9-3 with him. In case you can't do the math, that is the same winning percentage. The Steelers are good with out Big Ben... The Saints would be awful.

January 20, 2011  10:15 PM ET

Too bad Roethlisberger doesn't have a great offensive line. The guy is TOUGH .....

January 20, 2011  10:43 PM ET

Factor in the weather in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati and Baltimore, versus playing in the dome with divisional games in Tampa, Atlanta (dome) and Carolina, statistics don't tell the full story. The Saints could not run their offense in December and January as successfully playing outside in the conditions. Making Ben's 8+ yards per attempt even more amazing.

January 20, 2011  10:56 PM ET
QUOTE(#6):

Factor in the weather in Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Cincinnati and Baltimore, versus playing in the dome with divisional games in Tampa, Atlanta (dome) and Carolina, statistics don't tell the full story. The Saints could not run their offense in December and January as successfully playing outside in the conditions. Making Ben's 8+ yards per attempt even more amazing.

was saving that for my 2nd arguement

January 20, 2011  11:23 PM ET
QUOTE(#4):

The Steelers go 3-1 without Ben, then 9-3 with him. In case you can't do the math, that is the same winning percentage. The Steelers are good with out Big Ben... The Saints would be awful.

Factor in that Big Ben has only had a defense ranked out of the top 5 once in his career and that defense was ranked 9th, it's not that hard to win when you always have a top defense. His fisrt super bowl he went 9/21 for 123 and 2 INTs.

January 20, 2011  11:25 PM ET

Sorry, I believe you are both lost and looking for Jay Cutler.

January 20, 2011  11:26 PM ET
QUOTE(#9):

Sorry, I believe you are both lost and looking for Jay Cutler.

4th best starting QB that is still playing.

January 20, 2011  11:29 PM ET
QUOTE(#8):

Factor in that Big Ben has only had a defense ranked out of the top 5 once in his career and that defense was ranked 9th, it's not that hard to win when you always have a top defense. His fisrt super bowl he went 9/21 for 123 and 2 INTs.

lets not forget that was his 2nd year as a pro and he was and is the youngest qb to be in a super bowl

January 20, 2011  11:32 PM ET
QUOTE(#11):

lets not forget that was his 2nd year as a pro and he was and is the youngest qb to be in a super bowl

Yah but JaMarcus Russel could have been the starter and they would have won.

January 21, 2011  12:11 AM ET
QUOTE(#12):

Yah but JaMarcus Russel could have been the starter and they would have won.

Lets not be too crazy.

January 21, 2011  01:13 AM ET
QUOTE(#8):

Factor in that Big Ben has only had a defense ranked out of the top 5 once in his career and that defense was ranked 9th, it's not that hard to win when you always have a top defense. His fisrt super bowl he went 9/21 for 123 and 2 INTs.

It was an ugly, ugly super bowl. But it wasn't the Steeler D that won the game, it was the fact that Seattle had absolutely no business being in the super bowl.

January 21, 2011  01:39 AM ET

A Rodgers is better then both.

Anyway: When you think of the Saints what is it that scares you? Drew Brees
The Steelers: Defense

January 21, 2011  01:42 AM ET
QUOTE(#13):

Lets not be too crazy.

Seriously. Even sarcastic, that was a bit much.

January 21, 2011  06:16 AM ET

5x pro bowl, 3x all-pro, sb mvp vs. 1x pro bowl.

Brees is just the better qb. Ben is a good qb and very efficient at what he does, but he doesn't have to do as much and isn't as essential for his team.

January 21, 2011  07:23 AM ET
QUOTE(#2):

Roethlisberger is consistently better than Brees in arguably the most important quarterback stat... yards per attempt. He's one of only 5 Qbs to have a career YPA of 8.0+

I take the YPA with a grain of salt.

Tony Romo, Matt Schaub and Daunte Culpepper all have a higher YPA than Joe Montana, Dan Marino and Tom Brady.

Which tells me all I really need to know about that stat.

January 21, 2011  08:52 AM ET
QUOTE(#15):

A Rodgers is better then both.Anyway: When you think of the Saints what is it that scares you? Drew BreesThe Steelers: Defense

I think the fact that Brees threw for over 400 yards against Seattle and the Saints still LOST is all that really needs to be considered here to look at what Brees has to deal with vs. Big Ben.

 
January 21, 2011  09:45 AM ET

Of course Brees is going to have higher passing stats he throws the ball much more. Big Ben has only attempted 500 or more passes ONCE in his career, Brees has done it 7 times. And the reason Ben does get sacked more is because he plays in a much tougher defensive division. I mean just playing the Ravens 2X a year is tough in it's self. 60 of Ben's 240 comps. were for 20+ yards. Brees had 57 in 448. Oh and Ben also only played 12 games this year or else his stats would have been much better.

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