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  • 03/18/2011, 09:07AM ET

Jeter VS Gardner in The Yankee leadoff spot

Talonvael (0-1-0) vs Darth Maim (76-21-7)
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I believe Jeter would do better in the #2 spot with Gardner leading off he should be able to steal 60 bases easliy.


"I believe Jeter would do better in the #2 spot with Gardner leading off he should be able to steal 60 bases easliy".....um, who would steal 60 bases easliy? Jeter or Gardner?


So I will break this down by analyze this from both perspectives.


1) Gardner steals 60 bases easily. I do not believe that he can steal 60 bases "easliy". My supporting arguments are that:

a) Gardner averages 46 stolen bases when the 162 game average is analyzed.
b) Last season Gardner played in a total of 150 games. He now has 300 total games in his career.
c) He never stole 60 bases in the minor leagues.
d) Girardi has never had a player who has stole 60 bases on a team he has managed.

In addition, the last Yankee to steal at least 60...Rickey Henderson in 1990.


2) Jeter steals 60?

a) Jeter had 18 last season.
b) He averages 23 over a 162 game season.
c) See (d) from above.



So I believe that you mean Gardner will steal 60. In any event, I strongly disagree that he will EASILY steal 60 bases.....!


Forfeited Turn


OK....well thought-out, concise, thorough, grounded, articulate, point-of-view. But I disagree.....



So if I am Girardi, here is the line-up I put out on opening day:

Jeter-SS
Swisher-RF
Teixeira-1B
ARod-3B
Cano-2B
Posada-DH
Granderson-LF
Martin-C
Gardner-CF


And while the line-up can be adjusted to various match-ups and substitutions, this is the line-up that probably gives the Yankee's the best chance to score runs.




Your turn.....


Forfeited Turn


Forfeited Turn








Just kidding...well my opponent decided that he didn't have enough faith in his argument to continue.


His loss...literally.....






Have a great week FN.....!

March 18, 2011  09:28 AM ET

Will present my arguments after the noon time feeding.....

March 18, 2011  10:30 AM ET

Looks like it will be an epic debate.

March 18, 2011  02:00 PM ET

gardner stole 47 bases in just 477 at bats. if he batted leadoff for the yankees he would most likely top 600 at bats(jeter had 663 last season). his average last year was pretty much 1 sb per at bat, which with 600 at bats would put him right at 60 stolen bases. then, lets factor in that gardner would have way more opportunities to steal bases batting leadoff as opposed to being deep in the lineup as he was last year. if you take these things into account, id say that its not a given, but that the odds would definitely be in favor of gardner stealing atleast 60 bases.

March 18, 2011  02:19 PM ET
QUOTE(#3):

gardner stole 47 bases in just 477 at bats. if he batted leadoff for the yankees he would most likely top 600 at bats(jeter had 663 last season). his average last year was pretty much 1 sb per at bat, which with 600 at bats would put him right at 60 stolen bases. then, lets factor in that gardner would have way more opportunities to steal bases batting leadoff as opposed to being deep in the lineup as he was last year. if you take these things into account, id say that its not a given, but that the odds would definitely be in favor of gardner stealing atleast 60 bases.

1 per 10 at bats

March 18, 2011  06:03 PM ET
QUOTE(#3):

gardner stole 47 bases in just 477 at bats. if he batted leadoff for the yankees he would most likely top 600 at bats(jeter had 663 last season). his average last year was pretty much 1 sb per at bat, which with 600 at bats would put him right at 60 stolen bases. then, lets factor in that gardner would have way more opportunities to steal bases batting leadoff as opposed to being deep in the lineup as he was last year. if you take these things into account, id say that its not a given, but that the odds would definitely be in favor of gardner stealing atleast 60 bases.

Wrong. At #9 you can steal more with Jeter and Swisher, both whom take a ton of pitches, up next, it provides a great chance to steal bases. If Gardner hits #1, it will then be (most likely) Jeter, Tex, Arod, Cano. You do not take the bat out of the hands on Tex, Arod, and Cano. His attempts will drop and because of that, there is no way he steals 60 bases.

Besides the stolen base debate is stupid, the debate should be which order provides the better offense, not the number of steals. 60 steals is great but like Ricky getting caught a ton is not good. Henderson in the same season has the records (season only records) for most steals and most times getting caught. I do not have the second place numbers right now but I believe the numbers for both are way above the #2 person on that list. It is about percentage and when the steals happen, not the overall number of steals.


Gardner should bat #9 not #1. Jeter, Swisher, Tex, Arod, Cano, Posada, Granderson, Martin, Gardner is better that Gardner, Jeter, Tex, Arod, Cano, Posada, Granderson, Swisher, Martin because it is a more balanced lineup and the object of creating a lineup is to create the best chance to score the most runs.

March 18, 2011  06:09 PM ET
QUOTE(#5):

Wrong. At #9 you can steal more with Jeter and Swisher, both whom take a ton of pitches, up next, it provides a great chance to steal bases. If Gardner hits #1, it will then be (most likely) Jeter, Tex, Arod, Cano. You do not take the bat out of the hands on Tex, Arod, and Cano. His attempts will drop and because of that, there is no way he steals 60 bases. Besides the stolen base debate is stupid, the debate should be which order provides the better offense, not the number of steals. 60 steals is great but like Ricky getting caught a ton is not good. Henderson in the same season has the records (season only records) for most steals and most times getting caught. I do not have the second place numbers right now but I believe the numbers for both are way above the #2 person on that list. It is about percentage and when the steals happen, not the overall number of steals. Gardner should bat #9 not #1. Jeter, Swisher, Tex, Arod, Cano, Posada, Granderson, Martin, Gardner is better that Gardner, Jeter, Tex, Arod, Cano, Posada, Granderson, Swisher, Martin because it is a more balanced lineup and the object of creating a lineup is to create the best chance to score the most runs.

I'm too baked to look up his SB%, but a high rate of success (which I think he probably has and is capable of) would benefit the 2-3-4 batters with more RBI opportunities.

I don't look at him stealing 2nd as him taking the bat out of their hands.

But, the only way to know is to see it happen.

March 18, 2011  06:13 PM ET

Gardner's OBP was about 40 points higher then Jeter's last year and 7th or 8th in the AL. He averages more pitches per at bat then any other player on the team. Having him on first plays right into Jeter's strength which is hitting the opposite way. All indications are Gardner is going to lead off and it's the right move to make.

March 18, 2011  06:41 PM ET

Shouldn't this argument be based on OBP and runs scored as opposed to SB. I mean the whole point of the leadoff man is to GET ON BASE and SCORE right?

Comment #9 has been removed
March 18, 2011  11:43 PM ET

I could steal 60 bases easily.

March 18, 2011  11:50 PM ET

but also adds pressure to the pitcher and infielders.



This is a very important aspect of the game that is easily overlooked.

and...

speed never goes in a slump...

March 19, 2011  11:33 AM ET

Forfeited Turn...TD kiss of death.....

March 19, 2011  11:40 AM ET
QUOTE:

I'd take OBP and SB% over OBP and RS.Getting on base is obviously very important for a lead off hitter, but being a true stolen base threat not only puts a player into scoring position, but also adds pressure to the pitcher and infielders. Justin Cyder's point about P/PA is also a good one.

I agree. The runs scored aspect depends so heavily on who's hitting behind you it might not be the best indicator. I also like the idea of Jeter seeing more fastballs as the pitcher tries to keep Gardner close.
Before he hurt his wrist last year Gardner was hitting well over 300 and had an OBP of over 400. He slumped badly after the injury.

Comment #16 has been removed
March 19, 2011  01:47 PM ET

Gardner-CF
Jeter-SS
Teixeira-1B
ARod-3B
Cano-2B
Swisher-RF
Granderson-LF
Martin-C
Posada-DH

March 19, 2011  01:54 PM ET
QUOTE(#18):

Gardner-CFJeter-SSTeixeira-1BARod-3BCano-2BSwisher-RFGranderson-LFMartin-C Posada-DH

That is pretty solid. I think Cano is ready to bat 3rd (a position often reserved for the best hitter on the team) I would switch Posada and Martin also.

March 19, 2011  02:44 PM ET

A-Rod is a number 5 now. Teixera should follow Cano behind Jeter and Gardner. This isn't steroid baseball anymore, so no, A-Rod isn't going to do his 300/370/570 line anymore. Expect a drop off around 3-5/15-25 and maybe 100 points slugging which is still solid, but Cano will do better

March 19, 2011  03:19 PM ET

Maim put on his curb stomping boots for this one.

March 19, 2011  04:37 PM ET
QUOTE:

Both arguments suck, as neither suggest trading for Chipper Jones.

You're absolutley correct. Where can I vote for you?

 
March 19, 2011  04:53 PM ET

Left's dog looks cold.

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