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  • 05/02/2011, 02:26PM ET

If Kobe wins the Finals this year, can he be considerd equal to MJ?

fat28will (11-16-5) vs Serial Dex (95-44-10)
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IMO, i say no. Kobe is good and he is nearing great but he will never be near MJ. If we were to compare careers MJ would win time after time. MJ was a presence from the start of his career while it took Kobe's 3rd season for him to get a official starting job. In their careers both have played 15 and MJ has scored more points, grabbed more rebounds, and dished more assists. In Kobe's career he has NEVER shot over .500 and his his best FG% doesn't crack MJ top ten. Ok that was stats, moving on to other things Kobe's game is close to MJ but doesn't have the flair MJ had. MJ did the 360 layups the and 1 that you wouldn't expect and the shots that you thought wouldn't fall in but they did.


I hate Kobe and I love MJ, so this will be tough for me to get behind! That said:

1) Kobe taking a few years to find his mojo are irrelevant. It doesn't matter how slow you start, your body of work is what matters.

Garnett was a highly touted phenom to start his career and it took him like a decade and a trade to the Celtics to become a real winner. Do you think he will be remembered more for his struggles in Minnesota or his glory in Boston? Kobe will be revered for his success, not for his first 2 years on the bench.

2) MJ being the man means his stats will be better. Kobe has had to defer to Gasol, Shaq, etc... and those other players take away from Kobe's numbers.

Other than Pippen, who was MJ going to give the ball to? Bill Wennington? It was MJ's job to rule the roost.

3) 360 layups define greatness? Well Isiah Rider must be an all time great, because he loved fancy dunks.

Another point to consider:

The league has harsher competition right now. Athletes are better and there are a dozen teams that could win it all. The #1 seed Spurs just got manhandled by #8 Memphis. The league wasn't as tight back in MJ's days, which means he had it easier.


alright the only point i could make sense of was the last point. please clear up ur first two points When I say 360 layups and And 1 i mean the flair MJ brought to the game. Kobe may have hit gamewinners and or or a tough And 1 but MJ was doing that and then some. Remember when MJ scored 63 points against the Celtics in a 2OT loss in his 2ND YEAR which still stands today has a playoff record. Yeah, that was crazy or when he hit the Gamewinner in Cleveland also crazy. Just yesterday Kobe MISSED a would be gamewinning 3 in which LA was only down by 1 so a 2 would have worked. also remember all the DUNKS MJ DID. Ewing, **** was just the beggining


Yes I saw yesterday's game. MJ didn't miss any game winning shots?
Hitting a few game winners doesn't make you "the man."

If that was the case, we'd be talking about Robert Horry as the best player of all time. He's hit many game winning shots and has more rings than both MJ and Kobe.

The question was "IF Kobe wins the finals, will he be equal to MJ"

Why not?

- They will both have two 3-peats under their belt
- " " have 6 rings
- " " arguably be the best player of their ERA
- " " played the same position
- " " played the same number of minutes for their career (at this point)
- " " both have led the league in scoring
- " " both won personal accolades like MVP
- " " both had personal issues tarnish their legacy
- " " both have had the #1 selling jersey for multiple years

They are very similar players.

Both are ultra competitive. Both are both loved and hated by other players AND the public. Both have had messy marriage issues come to light.

They are very similar players and it could be aruged they are equal in terms of NBA accomplishments.


alright they are close on those points you gave but MJ has more in his bag.

10 Scoring titles/ Kobe 2
1 Defensive player of the year/ Kobe 0
5 MVPs/ Kobe 1
10 All-NBA selection/ Kobe 8
9 All-NBA Defense/ Kobe 8
6 Finals MVPs/ Kobe 2
Record in Finals MJ 6-0 p.s. beating six different teams each time/ Kobe 5-2
Career ppg in season & playoffs MJ 30.1,33.4/ Kobe 25.3,25.5 so in stats Kobe doesn't really step it up in the Playoffs

Also you say Kobe will have 2 three-peats under his belt. the playoffs aren't over so idk how you can say he has 2. Also making Clutch shots and Gamewinners can make you the man. Jerry West and Larry Bird made Clutch shots and Gamewinners and their considered the MAN so Robert Horry can be considered the man to a certain point but he isn't the MAN


"Also you say Kobe will have 2 three-peats under his belt. the playoffs aren't over so idk how you can say he has 2"

Well the discussion is based on the premise that Kobe wins another ring this year. We are assuming he wins the Finals. At least that's what you said in YOUR title.

Look. It's obvious that Kobe will never be held in the high regard MJ is. I don't even know if ANYONE will ever reach the heights that MJ did.

There are just certain athletes who are untouchable. Gretzky is another one of those athletes. We always try to find their successor and the guy to take the crown.

We've went through our Grant Hill's, Kobe's and Lebrons.

But if a player has a resume like Kobe does, there at least deserves to be a discussion about equality. There are many facets of their game, personality and legacies that are similar.

You have to at least consider the fact that Kobe might reach that upper echelon if he wins a 6th ring this year while combatting injuries.

Comments (94) Add A Comment

May 2, 2011  02:42 PM ET
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I say no as well. Every one of MJ's rings are when he was the man. 3 of Kobe's are when Shaq was the man.

May 2, 2011  03:15 PM ET
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I think that the gap is closing. I still say MJ is the man but Kobe would definitely take a good step towards him with a win. I say Kobe needs this one and one more to be on some sort of the same level. For now, MJ is still the man.

May 2, 2011  03:20 PM ET
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MJ has 6 Finals MVP's. Enough said.

May 2, 2011  04:09 PM ET
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QUOTE(#1):
Originally posted 02:42 PM ET  05.02 by bcos4life: It's Miller time

I say no as well. Every one of MJ's rings are when he was the man. 3 of Kobe's are when Shaq was the man.

And the 2 came despite him playing like ****.

May 2, 2011  04:09 PM ET
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To answer this question, No.

May 2, 2011  04:46 PM ET
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The league is not better now than it was in the late 80's and early 90's.

May 2, 2011  04:52 PM ET
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Kobe is not better than MJ.

May 2, 2011  05:04 PM ET
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QUOTE(#6):
Originally posted 04:46 PM ET  05.02 by SloppyJaloppy

The league is not better now than it was in the late 80's and early 90's.

You don't think there is parity amongst the league now? There are many more superstars now than in MJ's days. Players are faster and stronger. Many teams have multiple stars. In the 90's, you were lucky to have 2 all stars.

May 2, 2011  06:03 PM ET
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QUOTE(#8):
Originally posted 05:04 PM ET  05.02 by Serial Dex

You don't think there is parity amongst the league now? There are many more superstars now than in MJ's days. Players are faster and stronger. Many teams have multiple stars. In the 90's, you were lucky to have 2 all stars.

The league has no size now. There's one great center in the NBA currently and that's a shame. The NBA is not physical anymore. A regular game foul from the 80's or 90's could get players in today's NBA ejected and suspended. I also don't think players are truly faster, and if so, then by only a small amount. It just seems that way because the NBA realized players weren't good enough offensively and possibly too good defensively, so they changed the rules to encourage scoring. That meant the elimination of the hand-check which would have made it almost impossible for the quick, little guards of today's NBA to be effective previously. The amount of palming/carrying allowed has skyrocketed as well.

Guys coming from highschool greatly decreased the overall talent of the NBA. Players come into the NBA unprepared to contribute and without fundamental skills. Athleticism is great, but it should complement someone's game and not simply replace the ability to shoot the ball. Jump shooting is a lost art. Rookies used to contribute significantly right away. That is very rare now. You see some exceptions, but you see a large amount of players drafted on potential instead of exisiting talent and then each team has about 2 or 3 guys that aren't ready for the NBA or at least wouldn't have been if playing in the previous era. Except its become the norm for each team to have a few guys that don't belong in the NBA so it becomes less noticeable becuase the overall talent level is lower.

I'm not sure if Jordan started the trend of "superstar calls" but if not, he definately enhanced it much farther than it ever should have gone. "Superstar calls" ruin the integrity of the game and I believe they are applied at a much larger rater than during Jordan's career. They are often applied to whoever the best 2 or 3 players on a team are instead of to true superstars, which means lots of guys get bailout fouls when they travel or miss badly. They make sure that the game is unfair and star players stats are much better than their actual play is. Continuation is applied in a completely ridiculous manner in the today's NBA. I don't think it should be acceptable to get fouled on the floor and then take 2 more steps after the play should be over and then jump to make a layup or a jump shot and have it count.

The NBA went through a period where they didn't have very many good players and their best players were coming straight from high school and had more hype than talent. Marketing and greater sports coverage has led towards a trend of trying to make these players seem much better than they really are. The NBA is much better now than it was about 5 years ago, but not as good as when Jordan played.

I'm not going as far as to say there's a gigantic difference in talent, but I think there's less talent in the NBA now. You shouldn't have to learn how to play once you get to the NBA. You should already know how to play NBA caliber basketball when you get there. Overall, I would say there is far more hype now and rules that try to allow those players to appear better than they are, but not more talent.

May 2, 2011  06:48 PM ET
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QUOTE(#9):
Originally posted 06:03 PM ET  05.02 by SloppyJaloppy

The league has no size now. There's one great center in the NBA currently and that's a shame. The NBA is not physical anymore. A regular game foul from the 80's or 90's could get players in today's NBA ejected and suspended. I also don't think players are truly faster, and if so, then by only a small amount. It just seems that way because the NBA realized players weren't good enough offensively and possibly too good defensively, so they changed the rules to encourage scoring. That meant the elimination of the hand-check which would have made it almost impossible for the quick, little guards of today's NBA to be effective previously. The amount of palming/carrying allowed has skyrocketed as well. Guys coming from highschool greatly decreased the overall talent of the NBA. Players come into the NBA unprepared to contribute and without fundamental skills. Athleticism is great, but it should complement someone's game and not simply replace the ability to shoot the ball. Jump shooting is a lost art. Rookies used to contribute significantly right away. That is very rare now. You see some exceptions, but you see a large amount of players drafted on potential instead of exisiting talent and then each team has about 2 or 3 guys that aren't ready for the NBA or at least wouldn't have been if playing in the previous era. Except its become the norm for each team to have a few guys that don't belong in the NBA so it becomes less noticeable becuase the overall talent level is lower. I'm not sure if Jordan started the trend of "superstar calls" but if not, he definately enhanced it much farther than it ever should have gone. "Superstar calls" ruin the integrity of the game and I believe they are applied at a much larger rater than during Jordan's career. They are often applied to whoever the best 2 or 3 players on a team are instead of to true superstars, which means lots of guys get bailout fouls when they travel or miss badly. They make sure that the game is unfair and star players stats are much better than their actual play is. Continuation is applied in a completely ridiculous manner in the today's NBA. I don't think it should be acceptable to get fouled on the floor and then take 2 more steps after the play should be over and then jump to make a layup or a jump shot and have it count. The NBA went through a period where they didn't have very many good players and their best players were coming straight from high school and had more hype than talent. Marketing and greater sports coverage has led towards a trend of trying to make these players seem much better than they really are. The NBA is much better now than it was about 5 years ago, but not as good as when Jordan played. I'm not going as far as to say there's a gigantic difference in talent, but I think there's less talent in the NBA now. You shouldn't have to learn how to play once you get to the NBA. You should already know how to play NBA caliber basketball when you get there. Overall, I would say there is far more hype now and rules that try to allow those players to appear better than they are, but not more talent.

Dang

May 2, 2011  08:03 PM ET
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I'd disagree with the "less talent" aspect, but definitely would agree if you mean "less basketball fundamentals."

It takes talent to do a cross over, fake your guy and pull off a 360. However, the guy that just did that, probably can't do a bounce pass or hit a mid range jumper.

May 2, 2011  08:47 PM ET
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QUOTE(#9):
Originally posted 06:03 PM ET  05.02 by SloppyJaloppy

The league has no size now. There's one great center in the NBA currently and that's a shame. The NBA is not physical anymore. A regular game foul from the 80's or 90's could get players in today's NBA ejected and suspended. I also don't think players are truly faster, and if so, then by only a small amount. It just seems that way because the NBA realized players weren't good enough offensively and possibly too good defensively, so they changed the rules to encourage scoring. That meant the elimination of the hand-check which would have made it almost impossible for the quick, little guards of today's NBA to be effective previously. The amount of palming/carrying allowed has skyrocketed as well. Guys coming from highschool greatly decreased the overall talent of the NBA. Players come into the NBA unprepared to contribute and without fundamental skills. Athleticism is great, but it should complement someone's game and not simply replace the ability to shoot the ball. Jump shooting is a lost art. Rookies used to contribute significantly right away. That is very rare now. You see some exceptions, but you see a large amount of players drafted on potential instead of exisiting talent and then each team has about 2 or 3 guys that aren't ready for the NBA or at least wouldn't have been if playing in the previous era. Except its become the norm for each team to have a few guys that don't belong in the NBA so it becomes less noticeable becuase the overall talent level is lower. I'm not sure if Jordan started the trend of "superstar calls" but if not, he definately enhanced it much farther than it ever should have gone. "Superstar calls" ruin the integrity of the game and I believe they are applied at a much larger rater than during Jordan's career. They are often applied to whoever the best 2 or 3 players on a team are instead of to true superstars, which means lots of guys get bailout fouls when they travel or miss badly. They make sure that the game is unfair and star players stats are much better than their actual play is. Continuation is applied in a completely ridiculous manner in the today's NBA. I don't think it should be acceptable to get fouled on the floor and then take 2 more steps after the play should be over and then jump to make a layup or a jump shot and have it count. The NBA went through a period where they didn't have very many good players and their best players were coming straight from high school and had more hype than talent. Marketing and greater sports coverage has led towards a trend of trying to make these players seem much better than they really are. The NBA is much better now than it was about 5 years ago, but not as good as when Jordan played. I'm not going as far as to say there's a gigantic difference in talent, but I think there's less talent in the NBA now. You shouldn't have to learn how to play once you get to the NBA. You should already know how to play NBA caliber basketball when you get there. Overall, I would say there is far more hype now and rules that try to allow those players to appear better than they are, but not more talent.

This.

May 2, 2011  09:28 PM ET
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QUOTE(#4):
Originally posted 04:09 PM ET  05.02 by Confucius. Trout

And the 2 came despite him playing like ****.

You mean 6 for 24 isn't a good shooting night?

May 2, 2011  09:31 PM ET
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QUOTE(#6):
Originally posted 04:46 PM ET  05.02 by SloppyJaloppy

The league is not better now than it was in the late 80's and early 90's.

Very true. Jordan's last 3 championships were watered down a bit... but the first 3 weren't.

And how are Kobe's first 3 champs not in a watered down league? 1999-2003 was a terrible period of NBA basketball.

May 2, 2011  10:15 PM ET
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QUOTE(#13):
Originally posted 09:28 PM ET  05.02 by McI

You mean 6 for 24 isn't a good shooting night?

i guess 12-30 is MVP-like

May 2, 2011  11:01 PM ET
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You can't say Kobe will "never be near" Jordan. If he still plays great another two seasons, and tacks on at least one title, Kobe would be at least near Jordan.

May 2, 2011  11:04 PM ET
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You would have to compare Kobe's first three years to Jordan's 4 years in college...

Had Jordan went straight to the NBA from High School, he wouldnt have been half the player he was. DS made Jordan the unstoppable force that ruled the NBA all of those years.

May 2, 2011  11:35 PM ET
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The answer to the question is no.

The answer to this TD is right. His argument is far better

May 3, 2011  01:24 AM ET
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QUOTE(#18):
Originally posted 11:35 PM ET  05.02 by Rudedog: Thankful

The answer to the question is no.The answer to this TD is right. His argument is far better

THIS!

 
May 3, 2011  02:28 AM ET
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where the Black Mamba failed tonight, Jordan would have made that last second shot 4TW.

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