- 05/19/2011, 10:33AM ET
DJRoxalot said 05/19, 10:33 AM
In another 1 of my TD's you said this:
"I'd rank them:
Then Chuck and Dirk "
Been waiting to TD with you Ten Rings, old pal.
My Top 5 is:
BRING THE PAIN!!!!
ElevenRingsSTL said 05/19, 05:59 PM
I will start by saying that my list on your other TD was off the top of my head with zero research, but I'll still defend it.
I'm a Celt fan and love KG, but no way should he be listed ahead of the Mailman. Malone was a far superior offensive player, averaging 25 a game to KG's 19.5, while playing very similar minutes per game. (37.2 MPG to 36.7 MPG for KG).
Malone was an 11 time All-NBA selection compared to 4 for KG. Malone was also a two time NBA MVP, compared to once for KG.
KG is a better defensive player with his 9 NBA 1st team selections, but Malone was no slouch defensively, being named to 3 1st defensive teams as well. The rebounding numbers are similar, but no way does KG's defensive play overshadow how much more of an offensive force Mailman was.
McHale and Pettit have to be compared with consideration to the eras in which they played. Though primarily a PF, Pettit was a giant at the time compared to many other players in the league. As a result, his per game offensive numbers are superior to McHale's, who spent much of his career as a 6th man.
McHale though, was the best PF of his era, and my next argument will support his ranking.
DJRoxalot said 05/19, 08:51 PM
KG played in Minnesota for 12 of his NBA seasons. And he was a team player when he could have easily averaged 25-28ppg. But he was a facilitator in their offensive system, averaging 4.7apg. Which is practically unheard of in todays NBA for a PF.
Malone played in Utah with another HOF player in PG John Stockton.KG had nothing comparable in terms of talent. The 1 season they had Sprewell and Cassell they made the Western Conference Finals against the Lakers.
KG's defense was the key to the Celtics foundation of defense and led to an NBA title.
I think his defensive dominance overshadows Malone's offensive ability since he had a DPOY.
And Malone was nowhere close to being in KG's class on defense. KG was no slouch on offense and could have posted better offensive numbers but again he was a team player.
McHale was basically a 6th man and not close to Pettit. Pettit averaged 26.4ppg, 16.2rpg, 3.0apg in 38mpg.
McHale averaged 17.9ppg, 7.3rpg and 1.7apg in 31mpg.
Pettit was clearly the better player.
McHale was not the best PF of his "era." That would be Charles Barkley. He was easily better ythan McHale but I do not think Barkley makes Top 5 either. Just missi
ElevenRingsSTL said 05/20, 04:55 PM
KG's D and DPOY is stellar, but does not overshadow Karl's offensive dominance or two MVPs.
You say KG had nothing comparable to Malone in talent around him, but Malone had Stockton and nothing else close to a HOFer. When KG won his one title, it was when he joined Pierce and Allen in Boston. Malone/Stockton carried Utah to a couple of Finals and likely would have won one if they hadn't been matched up against MJ.
McHale was 6th man by design, the same as Havlicek and others in Boston. It allowed deep Celtic teams to better take advantage of the matchup problems McHale provided.
I'll use your KG argument in reverse: McHale's numbers pale because he played on stacked Celtic teams. Were McHale on a lesser team, he could have easily been a 25 ppg guy if he were the go-to guy. McHale's status as a great PF is not diminished because he played with Larry, Robert and DJ. All of those guys stats were lessened because they shared the ball.
Pettit was great but took advantage of the times. The average NBA height in 1960 was 6'5, and there were only 4-5 players over 6-8. Pettit's numbers reflect his size advantage and ability to score over smaller defenders.
DJRoxalot said 05/21, 09:55 AM
"KG's D and DPOY is stellar, but does not overshadow Karl's offensive dominance or two MVPs."
Yes, it does. It led to an NBA title. His defensive mindset and mentality was the entire basis of Boston's defensive philosophy.
As KG went on defense, so did the Celtics.
"You say KG had nothing comparable to Malone in talent around him, but Malone had Stockton and nothing else close to a HOFer."
Malone and Stockton are both HOF'ers....
Jeff Hornacek? Remember him? Excellent player, just a step below All Star caliber.
And I know what KG had IN BOSTON.
He spent his prime in Minnesota. That is what you are not understanding here. He very rarely had a decent supporting cast around him, except for when management went out and got Cassell and Spree.
Yet he still made them a perennial playoff team.
"Pettit was great but took advantage of the times. The average NBA height in 1960 was 6'5, and there were only 4-5 players over 6-8."
And? Pettit was just 6-9 and 205 pounds. Lets not make him out to be Shaq.
And did average 3apg. It is not like he is a black hole in the post.
He did pass the ball.
ElevenRingsSTL said 05/21, 10:55 PM
Wouldn't dispute that KG played a major role in the 08 championship, but again it was after he joined two HOFers. Had you given Mailman a second HOFer along with Stockton, he most assuredly would have won a ring.
I stated that Malone had nothing close to a second HOFer and apparently you agreed with me, as all you could offer up was Jeff Hornacek. Hornacek was a nice player, but nowhere close to HOF caliber, and very similar to the players KG lined up with in Minnesota.
KG has had a great career and I can't criticize it, but he still falls short of Malone's overall body of work. Second in all time points, 2 MVPs and took the Utah Jazz to two Finals appearances where they only lost because of MJ.
Pettit was not Shaq, but let's not pretend he didn't have a tremendous size advantage over the majority of people guarding him. Pettit has great numbers and he is definitely a Top 10 PF, but can't be considered Top 5.
You didn't refute my point about McHale putting up bigger numbers elsewhere. McHale was a tremendous scorer and one of the toughest defensive matchups in NBA history, given his size and numerous post moves.
Good TD, DJ. Thanks for the invite
- Fantasy baseball Roundtable: Is Cardinals' pitching slowing?
- Fantasy football focus: Impact of Michael Crabtree's injury
- Fantasy baseball Pitching Report: Odorizzi a worthy option
- Fantasy baseball Injury Report: Cueto returns, Price hits the DL
- Fantasy baseball Waiver Wire: Johnson still going strong
- Awful Announcing
- Free Darko
- Pro Football Talk
- The Big Lead
- Joe Posnanski
- The Sporting Blog
- Big League Stew
- Bugs and Cranks
- Every day Should Be Saturday
- Mr. Irrelevant
- With Leather
- The Sports Hernia