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  • 06/21/2011, 07:45PM ET

IRB Baseball Tourney

(KMac) Lame Sauce (49-53-7) vs BringThePain (9-16-1)
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The question is: Is it better to have 1 superstar with a terribly selfish attitude surrounded by good/decent players, or a number of good players with team first attitudes?

This choice was easy for me to make. History has shown us that teams with good players with team first attitudes usually win the World Series. Proof?

2010 Giants
2008 Phillies
2006 Cardinals
2003 Marlins

and my favorite example....

THE 2002 ANAHEIM ANGELS.

Why the Angels? Not because of homerism (ok partly), but because they didn't have any superstars on their team. They had a team full of good, quality players with team first attitudes led by veterans Tim Salmon, Troy Percival, Darin Erstad, and Garret Anderson.

The team they played? How much more selfish can a team get when it already has Jeff Kent and Barry Bonds? Did either of them win a World Series? No.

Thus, the history books have proven that teams with selfish players don't win very often. They do win sometimes (see Red Sox and Yankees) but that's because they have more than one superstar on the team.

Bring the pain, BringThePain.


First off, I got effed on this topic. Who in their right mind would take 1 SELFISH superstar over an actual team. But you have to play the hand you are dealt since this is a tourney TD.

My perfect example of THE ultimate selfish superstar is the one and only Manny Ramirez. Its funny how being great (Hanley Ramirez) will get the fact that your a waste of oxygen as a person overlooked.

This is the lineup for the 04' Red Sox the year they won the World Series.(baseball-referance.com)

C- Jason Varitek
1B- Kevin Millar
2B- Mark Bellhorn
SS- Pokey Reese
3B- Bill Mueller
LF- MANNY RAMIREZ
CF-Johnny Damon
RF- Gabe Kapler
DH- David Ortiz

Now although the pithching staff has some all time greats, this is not a lineup that anyone would EVER think would sweep a World Series. Manny Ramirez is the only great superstar in that lineup and dont say Ortix is. Although he is a very good player, he is a DH and not near as important as Manny, who was also named the World sereis MVP.

BRING THE PAIN!!!


Yes, the 2004 Red Sox had Manny Ramirez who is the epitome of THE ultimate selfish superstar, BUT you are incorrect to say that Ortiz was not near as important as Manny.

Quickly, I will prove this:

David Ortiz- 4.3 WAR
Manny Ramirez- 3.8 WAR

Why is Man-Ram's lower? Because there's not 2 DH spots on the team, and they had to put him somewhere. His RDRS was -11. Not good.

Anyways, in every sport, the team with the good players that play well together and are hell bent at winning usually win.

I'm not saying teams like the 2004 Red Sox can't pull it off, but they usually don't.

Let's look at the Giants last year.

Cody Ross? Brian Wilson? Somebody different stepped up and helped the team win every night, while the Rangers relied heavily on the bats of Nelson Cruz and Josh Hamilton to win. Once Hamilton's bat went cold, not many other players were used to contributing much, so the team went down. Meanwhile, San Fran being used to contributions from EVERY player went on to win the Series.

Just another example of a team without selfish superstars won.


I hate to do this because im not a quitter, but I cant argue this topic. Its insane to even ask the question what is better.

Nobody wins with 1 superstar, much less 1 selfish superstar.

We need a new topic if you want to TD.


Forfeited Turn


Forfeited Turn

June 21, 2011  07:45 PM ET

I'll get my argument up in a little bit. The topic is: Is it better to have 1 superstar with a terribly selfish attitude surrounded by good/decent players, or a number of good players with team first attitudes?

June 22, 2011  08:23 PM ET

Left already has the edge, teams with only one star with a selfish attitude never get anywhere. When you get to more then one superstars with selfish attitudes. Well you are either the Yanks, Sox, or Phillies

June 22, 2011  08:26 PM ET

I would rather have ultiple superstars

June 22, 2011  08:27 PM ET
QUOTE(#2):

Left already has the edge, teams with only one star with a selfish attitude never get anywhere. When you get to more then one superstars with selfish attitudes. Well you are either the Yanks, Sox, or Phillies

hey, the only selfish guy on their team was Manny.

June 22, 2011  08:28 PM ET

BRING IT!!!!

June 22, 2011  08:30 PM ET

http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/848065?new=true

Blog anyone

June 22, 2011  08:32 PM ET
QUOTE(#4):

hey, the only selfish guy on their team was Manny.

Youk, Manny, and Ortiz are the three. Two took roids to make themselves look better, one is Kevin Youk

June 22, 2011  09:03 PM ET

see the yankees? why dont you tell me who the selfish superstar was on the 96 and 98 yankees, cuz i cant find one.

June 22, 2011  09:17 PM ET
QUOTE(#8):

see the yankees? why dont you tell me who the selfish superstar was on the 96 and 98 yankees, cuz i cant find one.

I was more talking about the 2009 team. But I'm sure I can find one one the 96-98 teams. How bout Daryll Strawberry? Or David Wells?

June 23, 2011  12:11 AM ET
QUOTE(#9):

I was more talking about the 2009 team. But I'm sure I can find one one the 96-98 teams. How bout Daryll Strawberry? Or David Wells?

are you serious? in 96 and 98 daryl strawberry was a part time player who was paid less than 1million a year in 96 and 98. david wells played on 98 team, and was FAR from a superstar and FAR from selfish. just because wells was outspoken with the media at times(most of which came well after 98), it doesnt mean he wasnt a great clubhouse player, not to mention competitor. if anything david wells was the kind of player who wouldnt tolerate selfishness in other teammates. try again.

Comment #11 has been removed
June 23, 2011  12:39 AM ET

Boo!

June 23, 2011  03:23 AM ET
QUOTE(#10):

are you serious? in 96 and 98 daryl strawberry was a part time player who was paid less than 1million a year in 96 and 98. david wells played on 98 team, and was FAR from a superstar and FAR from selfish. just because wells was outspoken with the media at times(most of which came well after 98), it doesnt mean he wasnt a great clubhouse player, not to mention competitor. if anything david wells was the kind of player who wouldnt tolerate selfishness in other teammates. try again.

Derek Jeter. Now there's a selfish mofo.

June 23, 2011  08:24 AM ET
QUOTE(#13):

Derek Jeter. Now there's a selfish mofo.

Derek Jeter, The Moose, Brett Gardner, Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera are the only players on the Yankees that I like. I just can't stand ARod, there is a selfish mofo for you, Swisher and Cano are okay but not great

June 23, 2011  10:38 AM ET
QUOTE(#13):

Derek Jeter. Now there's a selfish mofo.

we are talking about 1998. try again.

June 23, 2011  11:09 AM ET
QUOTE(#10):

are you serious? in 96 and 98 daryl strawberry was a part time player who was paid less than 1million a year in 96 and 98. david wells played on 98 team, and was FAR from a superstar and FAR from selfish. just because wells was outspoken with the media at times(most of which came well after 98), it doesnt mean he wasnt a great clubhouse player, not to mention competitor. if anything david wells was the kind of player who wouldnt tolerate selfishness in other teammates. try again.

terrible move to trade him for the actually selfish clemens.

June 23, 2011  11:09 AM ET
QUOTE(#13):

Derek Jeter. Now there's a selfish mofo.

Ha!

June 23, 2011  11:10 AM ET
QUOTE(#14):

Derek Jeter, The Moose, Brett Gardner, Jorge Posada and Mariano Rivera are the only players on the Yankees that I like. I just can't stand ARod, there is a selfish mofo for you, Swisher and Cano are okay but not great

You don't like Ganderson?

June 23, 2011  11:11 AM ET
QUOTE(#7):

Youk, Manny, and Ortiz are the three. Two took roids to make themselves look better, one is Kevin Youk

how is Youk selfish?

Ortiz may have taken roids but that was his only fault. He's a great guy.

 
June 23, 2011  11:12 AM ET
QUOTE(#5):

BRING IT!!!!

Shut up

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