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- 06/21/2011, 08:27PM ET
Lineup of who you want in game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final.
Argos. said 06/21, 08:27 PM
This is a tourney.
Must play actual positions. Can't have Sakic - Gretzky - Lemieux.
I'll start from the backend out.
Goalie - Patrick Roy
No brainer.
Defense - Bobby Orr
No brainer.
Defense - Denis Potvin
When retired, led all defenseman in goals, assists, and points in the playoffs. Three time Norris winner. Captain of the Islander dynasty that won 4 straight Cups.
LW - Mark Messier
Played LW at several times during his long career (mostly at the beginning), and was even a 2 time First All-Star at the LW position. LW has always been a weaker position in the NHL, but Messier has won 6 Cups, and is an all-time great, and maybe the greatest leader ever.
C - Wayne Gretzky
I really wanted to put Sakic here, my favourite player, but couldn't put him on over Gretzky or Mario. Gretzky has 4 Cups, 2 Conn Smythes, & is the all-time playoff leader in points and points per game as well as goals. Holds 15 playoff records! Mario never played a game 7 in the Stanley Cup finals, Gretzky has, and won. Gretzky is 4-2 in game 7's, Mario was only 3-3.
RW - Maurice Richard
Sorry Howe and Bossy, this is a no brainer.
PatsFan21 said 06/22, 05:26 PM
I am going to replace Dennis Potvin with a defenseman who has won the Stanley Cup 4 times.
My defenseman is one of the smoothest skaters of all time. He plays and has played for a team that has consistently been built with depth at forward.
He is not a very physical defenseman but his defensive awareness and knowledge is second to none. For years he has consistently shut down an opponent's top scorers for his entire career. He has perfected the art of the stick check and is rarely called for penalties.
He is the definition of a great two way defenseman. In his 19 years, he has been on the negative side of +/- ONCE and that was in large part due to a young, inexperienced goalie.
He is clearly recognized as an exceptional defenseman by the league, he's won the Norris 6 times. SI and the Sporting News named him the player of the decade. The Hockey News called him the best European player ever.
So, we know his feared on the ice and a beast in the defensive end. But what about offense?
He is one of the best playmakers in hockey. He consistently is a top scorer among d-men and runs a fantastic PP.
My pick is Detroit Red Wings defenseman Nicklas Lidstrom.
Argos. said 06/22, 09:04 PM
That was Lidstrom in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final. Seconds left, down 1 goal, & Lidstrom had a great chance to tie the game & keep his season alive, but he couldn't.
Potvin won 4 Cups, & was the captain of perhaps the greatest dynasty in hockey. He was a true leader. Lidstrom too has 4 Cups, but only captained 1, & when he think of the Wings Cup wins, you think Yzerman, the captain of 3 of the 4.
Potvin like Lidstrom was a positive player for the majority of his career, all but 2 seasons was he a + player. The 2 negative seasons were his rookie season, and 1 year in the twilight of his career were he was injured for a large portion.
Potvin however was a career +460 in 1060 games.
Lidstrom is a +429 in 1494 games.
Let's talk "clutchness", Lidstrom has a career 46 game winning goals in 1752 games. Potvin has 51 career GWG in 1245 games.
Potvin has 310 career goals (257 adjusted), & 1052 (882 adjusted) points in 1060 games.
Lidstrom has 253 G (274 adjusted) & 1108 (1167 adjusted) in 1494 games.
In the playoffs:
Potvin 56 G, 164 P in 185 G.
Lidstrom 54 G, 183 P in 258 G.
PatsFan21 said 06/23, 05:22 PM
So, because Lidstrom was robbed by a great save on a rolling puck. So he isn't clutch? Come on Argos the guy has won 4 Cups and could very well win one next year.
You're going to dock Lidstrom because he wasn't the captain? What? Just because he didn't wear the C for all 4, doesn't diminish his value at all. People clearly see his value, he just won his 7th Norris Trophy.
So Potvin was in the negative of plus/minus 20% of the time. Lidstrom was in the negative 5% of the time. Advantage Lidstrom.
How does it matter who you think of when you think of a dynasty? Completley irrelevant.
You're going to say Potvin is more clutch because he has 5 more GWG? Come on Argos, that's plain stupid. We know Lidstrom is a very clutch, big game performer, the game hasn't lucked his was to 4 Cups.
I know you try to use adjusted goals but in reality there is no way to completley adjust stats. Potvin played in a much more offensive era and highly benefited from that. Lidstrom might not have the offensive ability of Potvin, but there's no denying he is superior defensively. I have Bobby Orr to get the offense going and Lidstrom is the better player to play solid defense.
MMTC
Argos. said 06/23, 06:15 PM
Lidstrom had a shot in Game 7 for the Cup, and missed.
Potvin being a minus player 20% of the time? Two times in 13 seasons is not 20%, and he was only a minus in those years due to being on a weak team in his rookie season and being injured late in his career.
Five more GWG in over 500 less games is a big deal. Potvin scored way more big time goals.
Do you now know what adjusted stats are? Of course they adjust them fully.
Potvin had 0.83 adjusted PPG, Lidstrom only 0.78.
Potvin had 0.24 adjusted GPG, Lidstrom only 0.18.
No matter what the era was, Potvin was better offensively, by a large portion.
And Potvin was the biggest piece to the Islanders Cups. Lidstrom was just another really good piece. Potvin's NYI teams had 4 HOF (including Potvin), some of those Wing teams had 8 HOF (or for sure future locks), not including Federov, Datsyuk.
What Potvin also has a massive edge in physicality. Potvin was a heavy physical hitter. Lidstrom, like Orr, does not hit. You need some balance on the blue-line.
Potvin had an incredibly high hockey IQ, and stayed back more than a guy like Orr. When the NYI had a lead, he became a stay at home defender and shutdown guy.
PatsFan21 said 06/23, 07:15 PM
You credit Potvin with a high hockey IQ. I'll see you Potvin and raise you Lidstrom. No one is better than Lidstrom when it comes to ice awareness. He's simply the best at it.
You're seriously going to tell me that Lidstrom isn't clutch because a good goalie robbed him with a great save in Game 7? Thats a joke right? He scored a Gold Medal game winner dude.
5 more GWG isn't nearly as big of a deal as you say. A GWG can be scored in the middle of the first or be the first goal of a blowout. Let's not pretend all GWG are big clutch goals. 5 more is not a huge margin.
So, your saying that because Lidstrom had good players around him Potvin was better? First off he didn't have 8 sure HOFers, but seriously Argos, thats plain stupid.
Potvin's adjusted PPG is .05 higher? That's great now tell me how that makes a big difference.
Potvin might be better offensively but I also have Orr. They can't both have the puck. Lidstrom is way better on the defensive end and I'll take that compliment to Orr.
Finally, Lidstrom simply wins. 4 Stanley Cups, 1 World Championship, 1 Olympic Championship, 7 Norris Trophies, Conn Smythe, 12x All Star, 10x 1st team All NHL.
Give me Lidstrom
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Comments (30) Add A Comment
ill get to this tomorrow around 2 or 3 my time
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
I was pretty confident that Lidstrom would be picked.
Argos.
Total Comments (5428)
For me, it came down to him and Lidstrom. But I didn't want to start comparing them in my first argument because I was hoping you wouldn't pick.
Argos.
Total Comments (5428)
G - Roy - 3 Conn Smythes
D - Orr - No doubt
D - Bourque (but Potvin and Lidstrom are right there, too)
LW - Bobby Hull
C - Gretz - but Mario can be obviously be argued if you're looking for size
RW - Maurice, but Howe's extra 30 pounds could come in handy
YODA
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (7173)
G- Roy
D- Bourque
D- Orr
LW - Messier
C - Lemiuex
RW - Brett Hull
That would be mine
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2115)
** Still looking for 1 sub to start a TD immediately (now, tonight or tomorrow morning at latest). FM me for details!!! I'll give you opponent and topic!!
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2115)
i almost took bourque as well. but he only won one cup so that was tough. both hull's were considered but i didnt feel i could argue it as well
PatsFan21
Total Comments (1467)
I throw adjusted stats out there, just to show that Potvin wasn't a better offensive player because of the era, but he was just better.
Potvin has a much higher adjusted GPG and adjusted PPG.
Argos.
Total Comments (5428)
No way should Lidstrom have won the Norris this season. He had the worst year of his career and was a minus player! He only played 23 minutes a game! Shea Weber was robbed (just like 2-years ago when he was better than Chara).
This is the third straight screw up for the Norris Trophy. This year should have been Weber, last year should have been Doughty, and two years ago Weber should have won.
Argos.
Total Comments (5428)
Martin Brodeur. He let Roy win that game.
(KMac) Lame Sauce
Total Comments (1528)
Goalie - Patrick Roy
D - Bobby Orr
D - Scott Stevens
LW - Mark Messier
C - Wayne Gretzky
RW - If Stanley Cups wasn't a determining factor than I would say Cam Neely.
Ain't No Money
Total Comments (11)
Love that Stevens pick. Brings in the physicality component with a bullet.
YODA
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (7173)
Scot Stevens = beast. Also should be the next coach of the Devils.
(KMac) Lame Sauce
Total Comments (1528)
Having a couple of Russian snipers on the wings could make for a random interesting angle on this TD.
If Pat Lafontaine can make Mogilny look like a star, imagine what Gretz could do with a couple of commies.
LW - Ovechkin
C - Gretz
RW - Bure
D - Orr
D - Rod Langway (to hang back and cover for the Russians' defensive lapses)
G - Roy
Mario's got the size and the all-around talent, and is arguably a better goal-scorer than Gretz;
but as an set-up man, Gretz has no equal.
YODA
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (7173)
*a set-up man...
YODA
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (7173)
I am probably the only non-Canadian Gretzky fan I know. Never enjoyed watching him. I preferred Mario and Yzerman.
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2115)
That was Lidstrom in Game 7 of the Stanley Cup Final. Seconds left, down 1 goal, & Lidstrom had a great chance to tie the game & keep his season alive, but he couldn't.
How about Roy's performance in game 7 of the 2002 Western Conference Finals? He seems to be the unanimous goalie selection here, yet he laid a massive egg that entire game. Knocking Lidstrom for one barely missed opportunity on the offensive side of the ice is boneheaded.
Potvin like Lidstrom was a positive player for the majority of his career, all but 2 seasons was he a + player. The 2 negative seasons were his rookie season, and 1 year in the twilight of his career were he was injured for a large portion.
Potvin however was a career +460 in 1060 games.
Lidstrom is a +429 in 1494 games.
Let's talk "clutchness", Lidstrom has a career 46 game winning goals in 1752 games. Potvin has 51 career GWG in 1245 games.
Take a look at the "clutchness" playoff +/- category for both players.
Also, you're comparing offensive stats for defensemen. If you're a defenseman, isn't it a tick more important to be better on the defensive end of the ice than the offensive end?
RP-29
Oshkosh , WI
Total Comments (637)
Goalie - Ken Dryden
Defense - Bobby Orr
Defense - Dennis Potvin this is a really tough one with Bourque, Robinson, Lidstrom available
Center - Wayne Gretzky
RW - Jari Kurri
LW - Mark Messier
Rex Racer
Total Comments (23144)
And I prefer Sakic!
Argos.
Total Comments (5428)
Tough to use stats for defensive play since there is none. I usually like to use ice-time, since it shows how much trust a coach has in a player, but they didn't have that stat for Potvin's days, and it would be out of whack since shifts were much longer back then.
And they did not keep track of +/- in the playoffs for Potvin until the very end, and after his Stanley Cup wins.
Argos.
Total Comments (5428)
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