- 07/12/2011, 03:37PM ET
Maplesyrup said 07/12, 03:37 PM
Best of luck YODA.
Leads in assists and points, and is second in goals created per game, adjusted goals created per game and goals per game. He has a cup, and his bad plus minus is entirely attributable to the terrible Lightning teams from '98-2002.
I'm using these stats because things like PPG are overrated, considering an average of 1.6 assists are handed out per goal. Goals are just more valuable.
He leads in goals created per game, adjusted goals created per game, goals per game and plus minus. But I could not put him over Lecavalier because 1) He hasn't proven he can stay healthy and 2) He basically has no playoff resume aside from one run.
Is right behind Vinny and Gaborik in every stat and is the best playoff performer of anyone on the list.
4) Patrick Marleau
Fourth in every stat. He has leads points and goals, but that is due to the fact that he has played more games.
He's last in every single important stat. He isn't last in assists, goals and points due to the games played advantage over Gaborik and Briere.
YODA said 07/13, 01:19 AM
Good luck to you, Maple.
I can't find much fault with your methodology. I'll just point out that Adjusted GC (or any adjusted stats) won't impact this particular topic since we're ranking guys who've played during the very same era.
I agree with your general assessment here. I'll add that in addition to a Cup, he also stood out as an individual in capturing the Maurice Richard trophy in '07.
2. Marleau (up from #4)
Marleau played in 1035 reg season games and another 124 playoff gms. Gabby played in 674 total. That's a significant 485 game difference and equates to nearly 6 seasons of contribution.
3. Gaborik (down from #2)
In addition to his glass skeleton, Gabby is the only non-center of the five. The other 4 guys contributed with faceoff duty.
4. Briere (down from #3)
Not quite as fragile as Gabby, but still missed considerable action. And he delivers bodychecks at less than half the rate that Marleau does. (Hits per game: Marleau 1.05, Gabby 0.68, Briere, 0.47). His GPG is only marginally better than Marleau's (.36 vs .34).
Agreed. He's not quite on the level with the other four players.
Maplesyrup said 07/13, 03:51 PM
Despite the injuries, Gaborik has produced at almost the same level to this point as Marleau.
If Gaborik had played the same number of games as Marleau, he would have 72 more goals create than Marleau, or about 3 more seasons worth of Marleau's production. The 72 goal difference would be the difference between Mario Lemieux and Mark Recchi. No contest there.
Gaborik and Briere are 10th and 23rd, respectively, on the active leaderboard for Goals Created/Game.
Marleau is 30th.
They are 6th and 18th on the active Goals Per Game leaderboard. Marleau is 23rd.
The difference in goals per game between Gaborik and Marleau is about the difference between Mike Modano and Mike Knuble. No argument on who has had the better career there either.
Briere is the best playoff performer on the list, placing 7th and 9th, respectively on the GPG and GCPG lists for the playoffs. Gaborik, the one time his team advances past the first round of the playoffs, contributes with 0.5 goals per game, which, if he had chances to maintain that, would rank him 4th on the leadeboard.
Gaborik has also accomplished this playing in Minnesota. Avg Goals For/G ranking?
San Jose? 12th.
YODA said 07/14, 01:02 AM
GPG is one metric, but just one. It needs to be balanced with overall output.
For example, does a guy who only played 2 seasons rank above somebody with 8 in terms of career because of a higher GPG? I would hope not.
And while that example is extreme, it's also denotes a 6 season gap - the very same gap between Marleau's contributions and Gaborik's.
When ranking careers of active guys, I use this exercise: If they retired tomorrow, how would I rank them in terms of eligibility for the HOF?
Per-Game stats are imporant BUT so are career totals.
Here's a quick comparison:
Player: Marleau, Gaborik
Goals: 357, 283 (26% gap)
Assts: 409, 288 (42%)
Pts : 766, 571 (34%)
These numbers lead me to strongly disagree with your contention that Gaborik has produced at "almost" the same level.
When ranking careers, one also has to take the "IFs" out of it completely.
"If Gaborik had played the same number of games..."
Well, he didn't. Which is why I moved him down the list.
"If he had chances to maintain that [pace]..."
Well, he didn't. So I can't reward him for it.
I'll address Briere in Arg 3.
Maplesyrup said 07/14, 08:19 PM
When comparing those percentages, you forgot to mention how Marleau has played 39% as many games as Marleau. Yet, Marleau has a 39% advantage in only ONE stat.
When comparing the games played difference, which you say is a strong factor in deciding between players, you have to mention that Marleau played 236 games of his 395 game advantage before Gaborik even got stepped onto the ice. His lead shrinks to 159 games played, and that would be even smaller if not for one injury suffered at the start of the season that ended that campaign.
Take those season's numbers away from PM's career numbers and the percentages are quite different.
And you didn't touch on the fact that San Jose averaged 12 spots higher in the Goal For rankings this decade, including 7 top tens. Minnesota didn't finish in the top 15 ONCE. New York hasn't either.
Marleau has played 29% more games than Briere. Yet his advantages in goals, assists and points is decidedly less than that once again:
Assists: 330, 409 (20%)
Points: 766, 594 (22%)
Add that to the fact that DB has 1 less GC than PM in the playoffs in 31 less games and its clear that Briere should be higher.
YODA said 07/15, 12:56 AM
Marleau played 39% as many games as Marleau? I know that's a typo but I still don't understand your point.
Marleau played a total of 4 seasons (games wise) more than Briere. The reasons aren't relevant. We're ranking careers to date...not projecting into the future.
Thank you for pointing out that Marleau's numbers are 20-27% higher than Briere's. And while you spent your entire 2nd arg on Goals "Per Game", the difference there is negligible. (.36 vs. .34).
Let me give you 5 final reasons why Marleau had a better career than Briere (and Gabby).
i) Marleau's a proven leader. He's been an alternate captain and a captain of his team.
ii) He's a 2-way player who logs PP and PK time
iii) He's the franchise leader in goals, assists, and PPG
iv) Marleau has good size (220 lbs) and dishes out TWICE as many bodychecks (per game) as little (170 lb) Briere. This trend holds in both the reg season and postseason.
v) The topic of the TD isn't just "NHL Careers"; It's "Careers"...hockey careers. Marleau won Olympic Gold.
Good TD, Maple.
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