- 09/19/2011, 12:50PM ET
JimJ77 Can't make it up said 09/19, 12:50 PM
You want a winning QB how about this?
8 division titles in his 9 seasons. 5 AFC championship appearances, 4 SB appearances, and 3 SB wins. 2 of which he was the MVP.
111-32 as a starter in the regular season. 43-8 in his last 51. Has won 29 straight at home. 29!!!!!!! 14-5 in the postseason.
is 10th all time with 268 TD's. Will be top 5 at the end of this season. Has over 35 thousand yards passing with a career completion pctg of 64 and a career QB rating of 96.
In his last 50 games he has 121 TD's, 26 INT's, has thrown for over 14 thousand yards. That's in 50 games people.
Has two of the top 5 greatest seasons ever as a QB. 07 and 10. Is the only unanimous choice for MVP EVER!
2 times MVP, 2 time SB MVP. 6 time pro bowler.
And mind you, most of his career has been surrounded by decent talent on offense, not great like other QB's such as Manning and Montana.
Tom Brady is the greatest QB ever, and its time people dealt with that fact jack.
Rawkstar said 09/19, 01:52 PM
Tom Brady has certainly put himself into the discussion. But he IS NOT the best all time.
My player won 7 League Championships
My player 9x All Pro (only played 10 seasons)
My player 3x League MVP
My player led the league in passing yards 5 times
My player led the league in padding TDs 3 times
My player led the league in completion % 4 times
He was not Michael Vick but he did have 44 rushing TDs over his career.
He played in an era of defense and running the football, yet he still managed to have an 86.6 QB rating. That rating is still respectable today with rules that heavily favor the QB and the offense. My player was not as fortunate as the QB's are today.
Tom Brady has put himself in elite company over the past few years. But Otto Graham is the best to ever play.
Otto changed the game. Tom is the best of his Era, maybe the best since Otto.
JimJ77 Can't make it up said 09/19, 02:32 PM
Otto Graham was certainly the greatest QB of his era, but he was certainly not the best ever.
First Otto had the luxury of playing WITHOUT a salary cap, and he played in a conference of 6 teams. Brady has played under the constraints of a salary cap and league of 32 teams. Winning between the two is not even comparable.
Otto was ahead of his time when it came to passing the football but he was no wizard out there. He threw 135 picks in comparison to his 174 TD's and twice had seasons of more INT's than TD's.
Also leading the league in passing yards and TD's is not really that impressive based on the size of said league. When Brady leads the current league of 32 teams in passing yards or TD's that is much more impressive.
Throw in how complex defense have become and how Brady has mastered these defensive tendencies and puts his players in certain positions to beat these complex defenses it shows how much more impressive he is. He is a general on the field.
Brady has put himself atop the alltime QB list. Playing under a salary cap, and against complex, ever evolving defenses is a hurdle he has overcome in a gigantic way.
Brady>Graham and its really not close.
Rawkstar said 09/19, 02:41 PM
You can argue the size of the league when he played. But he only played in the AAFC 4 years before the merger with the NFL. No I admit there was only 13 teams in the league then but he dominated it just the same.
You say defenses are more complex now, which they are but the defenses are also handcuffed on how the can tough/tackle the QB, how they cover a WR and what is classified as pass interference.
Completing a pass in Grahams era was more difficult due to what the defenders could get away with.
In todays NFL you pretty much have to wait for the QB to throw the ball and the WR to catch it and make a football move before you touch him, or it is pass interference.
You can say it was easier to dominate the NFL then but winning 7 championships in 10 years shows complete domination, and domination at its finest.
Otto could not choose the era he played in, but he dominated it more so than Brady does his own.
You can only compare two players with how the handled the competition and the teams they had to face at their time and clearly Graham was better.
JimJ77 Can't make it up said 09/19, 11:20 PM
Yes Graham only played in the AAFC for 4 years but his numbers declined noticeably when they merged with the NFL.
Post merger numbers for Graham are 88 TD's and 94 INT's. More INT's than TD's in a 6 year span. He was also 4-3 in the playoffs during this time.
That is quite a large sample size, and puts into question your contention that he dominated more so than Brady.
Brady has 268 TD's and 104 INT's for his career. That's a TD to INT ratio of 2.58.
Football was in its infancy during Graham's time. He did not have to deal with the athleticism of today's players and the constantly changing defensive schemes of today's NFL.
I agree that Graham did dominate his era, but you cannot compare today's era, which is the golden era of football. Brady has dominated an era which limits teams due to salary cap barriers and free agency. There is constant turnover in today's game.
Brady has had to work under these conditions his entire career. Consider the fact that there are currently 2 Patriots from the 2001 roster and only 8 from the 2006 roster. Yet Brady continues to excel at an elite level.
Graham simply does not measure up to Tom Brady.
Rawkstar said 09/20, 11:26 AM
Comparing TD to to INT ratio with a player from the 50's is like comparing Golf to Tennis. They were vastly different sports then.
Yes Brady has a far better stats. I mean Rex Grossmans stats are comparable from this era. But you are missing the point, those numbers dominated then because the forward pass was not a huge part of the game until QBs like Graham made it part of the game.
Yes football was pretty young then(about 25 years) but Graham is one of the reasons football is played the way it is now... it is why Brady is so good because people did not throw the ball as good or as often until Grahams era, and he was by far the best QB of his day.
You speak of Grahams numbers in the playoffs once he entered the NFL and yes he did throw more INTs then but he won the NFL championship the year they merged. The AAFC was regarded as the less talented league and he proved them wrong.
It's hard to argue against 7 championships in 10 years, and he held about every NFL record when he retired. Something Brady wont do.
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