- 09/27/2011, 11:40AM ET
DJRoxalot said 09/27, 12:01 PM
You said this a few months ago. I couldn't believe it at the time, I cannot believe it now.
1-Magic Johnson, 19.5ppg, 11.2apg, 7.2rpg, 1.9spg, while shooting 52% on FG's, 84.8% on FT's.
2-Oscar Robertson, 25.7ppg, 9.5apg, 7.5apg, 1.1spg, while shooting 48.5% and 83.8%
3-John Stockton, 13.1ppg, 10.5apg, 2.7rpg, 2.2spg, while shooting 51.5%, 38.4% on 3-pointer,s and 82.6%
4-Bob Cousy, 18.4ppg, 7.5 apg (led NBA 8 times), 5.2rpg, while shooting 37.5% and 80.3%.
Jackson? Averaged just 9.6ppg, 8.0apg, 3.8rpg, 1.2spg, while shooting 44.7%, 33.2% and just 77%.
Jackson was a good PG, but he was a liability on offense. Passing is the name of the game for a PG, but being able to score helps take pressure off other players. Jackson was a passer, that's it. And he only led the NBA 1 time. I don't even think he makes top 10 PG's. He played forever, that is the only reason he accumulated so many assists.
Good luck, it has been a while.
GoNets 2.0 said 09/27, 12:58 PM
I will bring it.
There is more to this than just stats. Firstly, you are only throwing stats at me, but 2 of the guys didn't even play during Jackson's era, and Magic was in the twilight of his career when Jackson started.
So the numbers are a bit misleading. The fact is, Jackson led the NBA in APG in 1996-1997, beating the likes of Stockton, Gary Payton, MJ, Pippen, to name a few.
Jackson played in an age of transition. What I mean by that is he played in an era where distributing the ball measured the overall success of a PG and his career ended right around the time where scoring PGs became the in thing. So yes, his scoring numbers are low, but his stats are defined in the era in which he played.
He is 3rd all-time in assists, 13th in APG, 8th in assist percentage. And say what you want about PGs who can score, but the success of a PG has and continues to be measured by how well they can distribute the rock. And the numbers prove that for Mark Jackson.
You mention Cousy led the league numerous times in APG, yet his career APG is LOWER than Jackson's. Put Jackson in Cousy's era, or even in the Big O's era, and he dominates.
Good luck, DJ.
DJRoxalot said 09/27, 01:23 PM
Magic was in the twilightof his career? In 1990-91, he averaged 19.4ppg, 12.5apg, and 7.0rpg when he retired due to HIV.
You want to ignore Robertson and Cousy? Fine, we can do that.
3-Thomas, 19.2ppg, 9.3apg, 3.6rpg, 1.9spg, while shooting 45.2% and 75.9%.
Thomas was a scoring and passing PG.
5th all time with 9.3apg
4-Payton, 16.9ppg, 6.7apg, 4.0rpg, 1.9spg, while shooting 46.6% and 72.7%. He is a more complete player than Jackson. He had to be accounted for at all times, unlike Jackson. Mark didn't do much offensively.
All 4 are more complete PG's.
Jackson didn't dominate any of these PG's.
"He is 3rd all-time in assists, 13th in APG, 8th in assist percentage."
He played 17 seasons, he was a compiler. The last 3 seasons he was just hanging on as he played for 3 different teams.
GoNets 2.0 said 09/27, 02:11 PM
I don't want to ignore Big O or Cousy. But you are just throwing stats out, and in the context of the bigger picture, stats are irrelevant.
We already established Jackson wasn't a scorer, but even with his low PPG, his shooting percentage and FT percentage are comparable to Isiah's and The Glove. And Jackson averaged nearly 1.5 assists per game mmore than The Glove.
He played 17 seasons, he was a compiler
Are you trying to discredit his accomplishments? Sure, I'll admit that the longer you play, the more stats you are likely to compile, but he also stayed healthy much of his career which enabled him to play longer. So you're going to fault him for that?
Jackson most certainly didn't dominate any of these PGs, but if you look at the stats you presented, MOST are comparable to Thomas and Payton. If you are going to include Thomas and Payton in the discussion, then you HAVE to include Mark Jackson.
Here is how I would rank them:
2. The Big O
4. Mark Jackson
5. The Glove
The length of time and number of teams he played for does not matter. The stats and career ranks speak for themselves.
DJRoxalot said 09/27, 03:35 PM
Stats are irrelevant? Only because they do not help your argument.
"And Jackson averaged nearly 1.5 assists per game mmore than The Glove."
Payton was a better rebounder, defender, and scorer than Jackson. Jackson was a slightly better passer, but Payton was capable of taking over a game as a scorer. Plus, Payton was a better shooter from the floor, while Jackson was a little better FT shooter.
2. The Big O
4. Mark Jackson
5. The Glove"
What the Hell?
Stockton doesn't make the top 5, but Jackson does? No way. And what happened? Robertson didn't play during the same era, thought you were complaining about that?
Because, if you include other players from a different era? Cousy beats out Jackson.
18.4ppg, 7.5 apg (led NBA 8 times), 5.2rpg, while shooting 37.5% and 80.3%.
9.6ppg, 8.0apg (led NBA just 1 times), 3.8rpg, 1.2spg, while shooting 44.7%, 33.2% and just 77%.
Cousy was better overall player.]He was a better scorer, equal in terms of passing, a better rebounder, while Jackson was a little better shooter. But Cousy played when there was no 3-point shot.
GoNets 2.0 said 09/27, 03:57 PM
Stockton should replace Isiah. I had a brain fart.
You continue to bring up scoring, rebounding, etc etc. Point guards don't get judged on rebounding. They get judged on defense, scoring, and assists. I conceded that Jackson was not a scorer, but most point guards, even good ones, aren't.
The fact is, Mark Jackson made his team better, no matter where he played. He reminds me of J-Kidd in that he didn't need to score unless it was necessary. He could find the open man no matter what, and he excelled at the assists.
That all sounds like Kidd. The only thing Kidd has that separates himself from Jackson is a ring. And we know the NBA is the furthest thing from an individual sport. You need the entire team in order to win, even in today's superstar-centric NBA.
Plus, Jackson's knowledge of the game is uncanny. He was one of the best commentators ever, and will succeed as a coach because his knowledge of the game is incredible. Being able to read defenses and run offenses is key in the NBA. Jackson was excellent at both.
Jackson IS a Top 4 PG, and deserves his place in the same conversation with greats such as Magic, Oscar, and Stockton.
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