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  • 11/22/2011, 10:19PM ET

Is The NFL Dropping The Ball When It Comes To Defensive Fines?

HOOTZ (33-14-9) vs Chosen1 (316-130-44)
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The topic is whether or not Roger Goodell's doling out of huge fines for defensive hits has been clearly defined, has been fair and has been consistent.

This has nothing to do with Rex Ryan using profanity or Earl Bennett's shoes. It's strictly about defense.

I say that Roger Goodell and the NFL have been coming up short time and again on defining what is a legal hit and what isn't. The fines are getting out of hand and there seems to be no consistency on how those fines are caculated.

The Pittsburgh Steelers alone have been fined more than $182,000 this season. With Safety Ryan Clark being fined two weeks in a row. If a player wants to appeal a particular ruling from Goodell, they have to appeal to Goodell.

We're now hearing terms such as Launching and Projectile Motion. Can you change projectile motion? If there is a receiver or runner with the ball and 2 different defenders headed at him from different angles and that player goes from a fully vertcal stance to a crouch in a millisecond...the 2 bodys in motion can't change course. What should have been a shoulder hit is now a helmet hit.

I'm not sure where this will end up but I think the NFL has lost its compass.


In the fanmail before this throwdown you said

"All you have to do is support Goodell's stance on his weekly fining spree. Just come out and lay down the logic as to either why it's working or it's good for football"

Are some of the calls questionable? Yes and the league has been willing to reevaluate questionable calls and in some cases has overturned them

Take the week 1 hit from Richard Marshall on Cam Newton that was ruled a penalty later ruled by the league to be a legal hit

Football is dangerous and helmet to helmet hits add an unnecessary danger

Even Kevin Coyle the DB coach for the Bengals last year when discussing fines said

"All of those incidents that you saw over the weekend, there are no arm tackles or the art of tackling that we once knew where you hit through with shoulders, you run your legs and you grab and wrap with your arms. Now there is so much collision hitting in the NFL, just throwing shoulders and launching the body into a receiver."

Which is like begging for a helmet on helmet hit to happen and Goodell is trying to get back to the right way

Of course some tweaking could and probably will be done over time but it is not a bad start


Many calls are questionable because there is no decisive rule that addresses incidental contact on defensive plays where a helmet to helmet hit occurs inadvertently.

If a defensive player accidentally pulls on a players facemask during a tackle, the rules take into account that it was accidental and no penalty is assessed. This in itself creates a double standard and it's not the only defensive double standard in existence. There are many.

If an offensive player leads head first going into a tackle, you rarely if ever see a flag thrown. There is no discernable pattern of concern when a defensive player's health is put at risk in the same manner.

The Week 1 hit that you mentioned is the exception not the rule. The NFL allows a player to appeal a particular ruling and that's it. Goodell hasn't made a habit of reversing his rulings. MANY defenders, such as Brian Urlacher and Ray Lewis have voiced there displeasure over how little chance they have of appealing successfully.

As far as the Kevin Coyle quote, I'm glad that came from him and not you. It's completely assinign. Even if you go as far back as leather helmets, concussions were just as prevalent in that era.

MMTC

November 22, 2011  10:24 PM ET

This is college, I'm not arguing this call. Just putting it out there for clarity.

November 22, 2011  10:25 PM ET

November 23, 2011  10:02 PM ET

I'm looking for an argument on this TD Chosen. Sorry for the confusion. I'm ready anytime you are.

November 23, 2011  11:05 PM ET

im going to go ahead and put an argument in real soon.... i put one in and it went to an error page so i have to type it all over again and try to find some info I had used in the original

November 24, 2011  12:13 AM ET
QUOTE(#4):

im going to go ahead and put an argument in real soon.... i put one in and it went to an error page so i have to type it all over again and try to find some info I had used in the original

Alright. I'm having problems with my monitor, so I had to shut down a few times. That's why I appear to be ingnoring you. Unintentional. Argue whichever TD lets you post. Ignore the draw if that helps.

November 24, 2011  05:57 AM ET

The NFL fine and suspension system is a joke and has no rhyme or reason other than the whim of the commissioners office on a given day.

A few years back, Wade Wilson...a QB coach...was found to have been using HGH. The league suspended him for 5 games, stating that coaches set examples so he had to be given a tougher sentence than a player would for the same offense. Ignoring the fact, of course, that there is no competitive advantage gained by a COACH using a PED...that's not why he was using it.

Fast forward a short time. The league announced that it found Bill Belichick and the Patriots organization guilty of multiple rules infractions that did indeed give them a competitive advantage. It's commonly referred to as 'spy gate'. They indeed proved that they took the offenses seriously, leveling the largest allowable fines on both Bill B and the Pats team. After the Wilson thing, it was assumed Belichick would be looking at as much as a year suspension.

He got nothing. Nada. Zip.

Huh?

Leonard Little KILLED A GUY on a SECOND OFFENSE DUI. Surely the league would take THAT seriously... He got an 8 game suspension.

Pacman Jones, on the other hand, was convicted of a MISDEMEANOR assault charge and was suspended for a year. His ONLY conviction for anything. The NFL cited Jones past "run ins with the law" as justification.

Uh, commish...Little's 'run in' KILLED SOMEONE.

And no rant of this sort would be complete without bringing up Michael Vick. Everyone knows what he did...most of it anyhow. So what does the league do? Gives him "an indefinite suspension". Ok, gotta figure this guy isn't gonna be back for a LOOONG time, if ever. Problem is, that suspension was a joke. He wasn't allowed to leave the state per terms of his bail and he volunteered to start his prison sentence early...um, guys, how harsh is a 'suspension' when the guy can't practice, play, or travel with the team in the first place?

So he 'does his time' such as it was and for the first time since he was caught is actually AVAILABLE to play. The 'indefinite suspension' had no teeth and was only put into place to keep the Falcons from having to pay a guy in PRISON and to give them some cap relief. That being the case, any real suspension would have to be leveled when he got out of prison...yeah, A whole 2 games. WTF?

So let's recap. If you drink and drive killing people, it costs you half a season. If it's just dogs you are killing, it's two games.

But if you have the audacity to throw money at strippers...kiss your **** goodbye for a year.

If you are an assistant coach who takes HGH because he has some sexual disfunction, you get suspended for 5 games.

If you are a HEAD coach who knowingly and intentionally breaks rules that afford a competitive advantage...you don't so much as get sent to the back of the line in the lunch room.

Nothing the league office does makes sense to anyone but Goodell.

November 24, 2011  06:06 AM ET

If a player wants to appeal a particular ruling from Goodell, they have to appeal to Goodell.

Yep. What kind of sense does that make?

To be fair, MLB works the same way and has been doing the same sort of thing. Fines and suspensions appear to be on a whim. Then you appeal the suspension...to the very guys who set it...and it's often granted! How ludicrous is that? "Well, we gave you the punishment we thought fit the crime but since you don't like it, ok, we'll give you less". I always get a chuckle when I see a starting pitcher suspended for 5 games. They appeal until after their next start, then drop the appeal. 5 games means their next start is pushed back a day. That's it. They don't even miss a single start.

Ok, obviously this is a subject I have strong feelings about. I'm out.

Happy Thanksgiving!

November 24, 2011  07:12 AM ET
QUOTE(#7):

If a player wants to appeal a particular ruling from Goodell, they have to appeal to Goodell.Yep. What kind of sense does that make?To be fair, MLB works the same way and has been doing the same sort of thing. Fines and suspensions appear to be on a whim. Then you appeal the suspension...to the very guys who set it...and it's often granted! How ludicrous is that? "Well, we gave you the punishment we thought fit the crime but since you don't like it, ok, we'll give you less". I always get a chuckle when I see a starting pitcher suspended for 5 games. They appeal until after their next start, then drop the appeal. 5 games means their next start is pushed back a day. That's it. They don't even miss a single start. Ok, obviously this is a subject I have strong feelings about. I'm out. Happy Thanksgiving!

acccidentally cut out part of the discussion that led to this topic being made it is strictly about the helmet to helmet hits

November 24, 2011  10:47 AM ET

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

I'll get to this later on this evening Chosen. Good opening argument.

November 24, 2011  12:28 PM ET
QUOTE(#6):

The NFL fine and suspension system is a joke and has no rhyme or reason other than the whim of the commissioners office on a given day. A few years back, Wade Wilson...a QB coach...was found to have been using HGH. The league suspended him for 5 games, stating that coaches set examples so he had to be given a tougher sentence than a player would for the same offense. Ignoring the fact, of course, that there is no competitive advantage gained by a COACH using a PED...that's not why he was using it. Fast forward a short time. The league announced that it found Bill Belichick and the Patriots organization guilty of multiple rules infractions that did indeed give them a competitive advantage. It's commonly referred to as 'spy gate'. They indeed proved that they took the offenses seriously, leveling the largest allowable fines on both Bill B and the Pats team. After the Wilson thing, it was assumed Belichick would be looking at as much as a year suspension. He got nothing. Nada. Zip. Huh?Leonard Little KILLED A GUY on a SECOND OFFENSE DUI. Surely the league would take THAT seriously... He got an 8 game suspension. Pacman Jones, on the other hand, was convicted of a MISDEMEANOR assault charge and was suspended for a year. His ONLY conviction for anything. The NFL cited Jones past "run ins with the law" as justification.Uh, commish...Little's 'run in' KILLED SOMEONE. And no rant of this sort would be complete without bringing up Michael Vick. Everyone knows what he did...most of it anyhow. So what does the league do? Gives him "an indefinite suspension". Ok, gotta figure this guy isn't gonna be back for a LOOONG time, if ever. Problem is, that suspension was a joke. He wasn't allowed to leave the state per terms of his bail and he volunteered to start his prison sentence early...um, guys, how harsh is a 'suspension' when the guy can't practice, play, or travel with the team in the first place?So he 'does his time' such as it was and for the first time since he was caught is actually AVAILABLE to play. The 'indefinite suspension' had no teeth and was only put into place to keep the Falcons from having to pay a guy in PRISON and to give them some cap relief. That being the case, any real suspension would have to be leveled when he got out of prison...yeah, A whole 2 games. WTF?So let's recap. If you drink and drive killing people, it costs you half a season. If it's just dogs you are killing, it's two games.But if you have the audacity to throw money at strippers...kiss your **** goodbye for a year. If you are an assistant coach who takes HGH because he has some sexual disfunction, you get suspended for 5 games. If you are a HEAD coach who knowingly and intentionally breaks rules that afford a competitive advantage...you don't so much as get sent to the back of the line in the lunch room. Nothing the league office does makes sense to anyone but Goodell.

Sometimes I agree with you. This is one.

Comment #11 has been removed
November 24, 2011  12:45 PM ET
QUOTE(#11):

I remember the Wilson incident.

Happy Turkey Day Dj

November 24, 2011  01:17 PM ET
QUOTE(#11):

I remember the Wilson incident.

It was literally a week or two before Belichick was 'found guilty' by the league office.

How in the hell can the league determine Wilsons "offense" which had absolutely nothing to do with football warranted 5 games while Belichick cheats (and yeah, what he did IS cheating) in several games and doesn't get a day's suspension?

Saying the largest fine in history was enough for BB is ridiculous. If a player, coach, GM, or owner does something severe enough to warrant the Max fine, it damn sure warrants a hefty suspension as well. They ran Debartalo out of the game for lesser offenses. What the hell does a fine do?

November 24, 2011  09:24 PM ET
QUOTE(#8):

acccidentally cut out part of the discussion that led to this topic being made it is strictly about the helmet to helmet hits

It's also about leading with the helmet. But yes, the topic is strictly about helmet contact.

Comment #15 has been removed
November 24, 2011  10:11 PM ET

Chosen, I have always admired your use of characters. It's very unique.

November 24, 2011  10:18 PM ET

can't wait to see what Suh gets...

Comment #18 has been removed
Comment #19 has been removed
 
November 24, 2011  10:27 PM ET
QUOTE(#19):

Chosen has been around the FN block a time or 2.

True Dj. I'm glad to see him back. He's a familiar face on the TD Page.

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