- 12/11/2011, 02:26AM ET
Razorback Attack said 12/11, 02:26 AM
Alright Dj, here we go! Sorry you had to wait so long.
I believe Jon Fox is an average coach. Webster???s Dictionary describes average as "being about midway between extremes." This [I believe] describes John Fox. He is not great, and he is not horrible.
-Fox's overall record is 80-76 a .513 winning percentage; including coaching the Broncos to a (7-5) record [so far] this season.
-He has NEVER had two winning seasons in a row. Therefore, he has never made the playoffs two years in a row.
-Fox's playoff record is a respectable 5-3 a .625 winning percentage. However, 3 of those wins came in the 2003 season when the Panthers made it to the Superbowl (where they ultimately lost a close game) since that time Fox has coached in 4 playoff games going 2-2 or .500.
-His average finishing place in a division is 2nd out of 4 teams
-John Fox's Draft history is also shaky as far as talent drafted by him. The Fox coached Panthers made it to the Superbowl in 2003; he started coaching the Panthers in 2002. He did not make it to the Superbowl with his hand picked talent. Julius Peppers is his one exception taken in the first round in 2002. Since that time he has lost his eye for talent.
DJRoxalot said 12/11, 12:17 PM
John Fox is not an average coach. That would mean he is the 15-16th best coach in the NFL.
He won the NFC South 4 times in 9 years.
He made it to the Super Bowl with Jake Delhomme at QB. Delhomme is hardly the type of guy you picture leading a team to the SB. He threw 19 TD's to 16 INT's that season. He wasn't exactly a very good QB, but they ran the ball well and were well coached.
In 2004, the Panthers lost Stephen Davis to an injury and were forced to become more of a passing team. Not the teams strength when they made it to the SB the previous season.
They were 15th in scoring offense and 10th in ppg allowed.
Sure, he has just 5 seasons of .500 or better (in 10 years), but with free agency it isn't that easy to maintain a winning team. Especially in Carolina.
He won 4 Division Championships in Carolina.
I think Fox is similar to Jeff Fisher. An above average HC, but not great.
Razorback Attack said 12/11, 01:40 PM
I think he may be better than 15th or 16th in the NFL THIS YEAR. However, we have to "average" it out through-out his entire career. What rank would you have given his coaching last season? Personally I'd give him 32nd.
Also, John Fox won the NFC South 2 times in his 9 years as the Panthers Head Coach, not 4. He also, only managed to make the playoffs 3 of those 9 seasons. The other years he never went better than 8-8.
How, if you are a consistent coach, do you take a team that went 11-5 (2003) to 7-9 (2004) the next year; Then 11-5 (2005) again to 8-8 (2006), the next season, then 12-4 (2008) to 8-8 (2009), then 2-14 (2010), and for good measure we'll add his 7-9 (2002 & 2007)
The difference between an average and a good coach is consistency. John Fox may have been considered an above-average coach if he had maybe scrapped together a few (or even a couple) winning seasons in a row.
We could talk about his miraculous 2003 season, and how he coached a lackluster QB to a Superbowl. I agree that was a great season for him as a Head Coach, it's just too bad he couldn't follow up on it.
DJRoxalot said 12/11, 10:12 PM
Carolina is not a hot destination for free agents to flock to. It isn't Green Bay, New England, or even a team like Dallas and Washington that actually spends money on free agents.
Fox reached the Super Bowl in 2003, the NFC championship game in 2005 and earned the No.1 NFC playoff seed in 2008, all with Delhomme starting at QB. Teams lose players to free agency, inuries, these things happen. Coaches are hired to be fired (usually) in the NFL. Very rarely does a coach walk away on his terms.
John Fox is the kind of coach that will put his team in position to win. He realized they needed a change at QB after starting 1-4, so he benched Kyle Orton and started Tim Tebow. After realizing Tebow is not a traditional QB that can throw b a pocket QB, he decided to try a risky move to the triple option offense. Something his QB is familiar with and played at the University of Florida. That takes balls. To use a gimmicky college offense in the pros where such a move could quickly backfire. Tebow has done well, the defense has played better and the Broncos are all but a lock to win the AFC West and make the playoffs for the first time since 2005.
Razorback Attack said 12/12, 02:21 PM
John Fox has to prove to me he can continue to win next year. Sure his team is having a really good second half of the season, their defense has been huge the last 8 weeks. But this is his trend! Up, down, up, down. Also using the FA argument doesn't convince me he is a good coach. Do the players believe in John Fox, or do they believe in Tim Tebow? Do the fans believe in John Fox, or Tim Tebow? John Fox is just average, like Mike Tice, they all have those good years, but they have just as many bad years! If Fox had just one more winning season than losing seasons I might agree with you. But he doesn't! He is a roller coaster type coach. He has been for 10 seasons. Sometimes you have to stop talking about his tough breaks, and start asking him to produce, a winning franchise. We can only base his status on what he has done in his career. What he has done is in the arguments above. He has produced completely average stats as far as being a coach goes. You've got to ask yourself, is John Fox a bad coach? NO! Is he a great coach? NO! He is average. Average is not always a bad thing to be.
DJRoxalot said 12/12, 07:20 PM
"Sure his team is having a really good second half of the season, their defense has been huge the last 8 weeks. But this is his trend! Up, down, up, down."
Elvis Dumervil was playing hurt the first half of the season, you realize that. Right?
Elvis is a huge part of their defensive scheme. Elvis (7.5sacks in the last 6 games) at DE and Von Miller (62 tackles and 11.5sacks) at Strongside LB. That is an excellent 1-2 punch that can rush the passer and cause chaos in the offensive backfield.
FA's don't matter? What? So a coach doesn't need quality talent? He can win with crappy personnel? No way. I don't know who the team is that you follow (love to know btw), but a coach can't work miracles with crap players. The players play the game. The coach has to put his players in a good position to win. And Fox put his team in a position to win by going with an offense Tebow is familiar with. That saved their season.
Tice was horrible coach who had some good talent, but just was overmatched as the HC. Plus, he was 1-1 in the playoffs and never made it to the Super Bowl. Fox took a less talented team to the SB and the NFC title game.
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