- 12/20/2011, 04:04PM ET
W_A_M_U? said 12/20, 04:04 PM
Mateen Cleaves (Michigan State: 1997-00) 12.5 ppg, 2.1 rpg, 6.6 apg- two Final Four appearances (99-00), one national title (2000) and Final Four Most Outstanding Player (00).
Steve Alford (Indiana: 1984-87) 19.5 ppg, 2.8 rpg, 3.1 apg- one Final Four appearance (87) and one national title (87).
Glen Rice (michigan: 1986-89) 18.2 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 2.0 apg- one Final Four appearance (89) and one national title (89). Rice also holds the all time record for most points scored in a single NCAA Tourney with 184 points (30.7 ppg) in 89.
Jerry Lucas (Ohio State: 1960-62) 24.3 ppg, 17.2 rpg- three Final Four appearance (60-62), one national title (60) and two time national national runner up (61-62) and two time Final Four Most Outstanding Player Award (60-61).
Kent Benson (Indiana: 1974-77) 15.3 ppg, 9.0 rpg- one Final Four appearance (76), one national title and one Final Four Most Outstanding Player Award (76).
I will discuss more of their career accomplishments in my next argument.
Thanks for the TD Rude and good luck!
Rudedog: Believe The Hype said 12/21, 12:55 PM
Sorry for the delay, but here are my picks
PG - Isiah Thomas, Indiana - 15.4 points, 5.7 assists, 3.5 rebounds, 53% shooting. While Cleaves was good, Thomas was undoubtedly better. I debated with him or Magic Johnson, but my homerism brought me to Thomas. Either pick, however, is better than yours.
SG - Rick Mount, Purdue - I couldn't find a complete career average for him, but his point per game average was a staggering 30.5 points a game. Considering he did it in an era with no 3-point line, that's incredibly impressive. He has to be included
SF - same
PF - same
C - Glenn Robinson, Purdue - 27.5 points, 9.7 rebounds, 48% FG. Robinson was a stud for the Boilermakers down low and, as much as it pains me to have two Purdue guys on the list, he belongs here. Robinson was surely the most dominate big man in Purdue history and one of the best in Big Ten history.
Best of luck WAMU
W_A_M_U? said 12/21, 02:38 PM
You can keep Thomas, I would rather have the PG that guided his team to two Final Four's. Not to take anything away from Glenn "Big Dog" Robinson but at 6-7 he was not a C. And while Mount was a great scorer my SG could also hoop it up with the best of them and he did cut down the nets. Just like ever member of my team.
Cleaves: 3 time All American (98-2nd team, 99-1st, 00-2nd). And 2000 All Tourney Team.
Alford: 2 time first team All American (86-87). 87 All Tourney Team / member of 1980's All Decade Tourney Team.
Rice: 1989 2nd team All American (and he was the 89 Final Four MOP). 89 All Tourney Team.
Lucas: 3 time first team All American (60-62). 60-62 All Tourney Teams / 1960's All Decade Team. JL was also the Player of the Year in 61 and 62.
Benson: 2 time first team All American (76-77). 76 All Tourney Team / 1970's All Decade Team.
My starting five has a total of eight Final Four appearances and five national championships to got along with those five Most Outstanding Player Awards.
Next I will point out their conference achievements.
Rudedog: Believe The Hype said 12/21, 10:02 PM
You know what, I'll give you Glenn Robinson. I went back and looked and misread part of it. Clearly he's not a SG.
But I clearly win the other two positions.
At PG, you talk about having a PG who "guided his team." In Isiah Thomas, you have a PG who led his team to a title just like yours. And he scored more points, had nearly as many assists, more rebounds, and shot much better from the field.
In all aspects, Isiah Thomas was a better player than Cleeves. It's to take nothing away from Cleeves, but the way Isiah led IU to a title, he's part of Hoosier lore.
And then the Alford-Mount debate is going to hurt for me. But, as I pointed out in my original argument, the scoring numbers Mount put up without a 3-point line is mind-boggling. He had numerous 50 and 60 point games in his career. Think about how many times that is done in today's game. We rarely hear of that and he was doing it and a nationally relevant school. Alford was a great scorer, but he wasn't better than Mount.
I also don't agree with the argument about individual awards as it doesn't show how good players are. If they play in a year of great players elsewhere, they may not win the award.
W_A_M_U? said 12/22, 11:23 AM
Individual awards don't show how good a player was? Ok then Rude just how do you determine how good a CBB player was then? And of course I totally disagree with you on that one.
Cleaves: Three time all conference selection and two time Big Ten POY (98/99). He is also MSU's and the Big Ten's all time assist leader with 816. And MC is MSU's all time steals leader with 193. Also he's MSU's only 3 time All American.
Alford: Three time all conference selection. Big Ten POY (87). When Alford's career ended at IU he was their all time leading scorer with 2,438 points, since passed by Calbert Cheaney. He was also a member of the 84 Olympic team that won gold.
Rice: First team all conference and POY his sr. year there. And Rice is UM's all time leading scorer with 2,442 points.
Lucas: Three time all conference selection, only player in conference history to be POY three years in a row. He's also the only player to lead the nation in field goal % and rebounding three years in a row. And JL was a meber of the 1960 Olympic gold medal team.
Benson: Three time all conference selection and two time Academic All American (76/77).
Rudedog: Believe The Hype said 12/23, 11:37 AM
I ran out of room to argue it, but individual awards can only be taken into account so much. For example, JJ Redick won all the national player of the year awards his senior year, leaving Adam Morrison nothing. Does that make Morrison less of a player? No.
Even if you want to debate that, Thomas and Mount were both first team All-Americans and Thomas was MOP of the tourney when IU won.
If the whole reason you took Alford over Mount is because of a title, then that's entirely flawed. Would you take Robert Horry over Elgin Baylor because Horry has the rings? Obviously not. Mount was clearly the better scorer and that's what you want out of a shooting guard. Mount torched defenses on a far higher level than Alford.
As for Thomas-Cleeves, Cleeves was a special player, but Thomas was just better all around. An argument that Cleeves was to more Final Fours is silly because he was at MSU for four years while Thomas left after two. To me, that speaks how much better Thomas was that he could leave early and play in the pros.
In the end, it comes down to the fact that my team is simply better than yours.
Great TD WAMU
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