- 08/17/2012, 04:28PM ET
Marlins Fan said 08/18, 02:23 AM
I'm saying Cabrera's batting title (should he win it) is less valid than Reyes'
Sure, it was weak of Reyes to pull himself from a game after ensuring he'd win the title. It wasn't very competitive and it was borderline childish/selfish.
Bit it wasn't completely against the rules. Cabrera apparently knowingly used PED's in an effort to chemically enhance his game so any personal accomplishments/achievements must be taken with a grain of salt.
This is definitely a lesser of two evils type ordeal. Nobody won anything, really. Both guys took the path of least resistance to a batting title. But Cabrera's path was less resistant, if you will. He broke the rules; Reyes merely put himself over his team for part of one game out of a one hundred sixty two game season.
Neither of these guys should be writing home about what they've done, but if either of them feel compelled to grab some parchment along with a quill and ink, it'll be Reyes. What he did was corny but it wasn't flat out banned.
I like both of these players and I winced when I heard about both of these stories. But Cabrera is the only one who truly put an asterisk next to his accomplishment.
jermur613 said 08/18, 05:00 AM
Sometimes in life inaction is far more detrimental than action itself.
Reyes had only played 75% of the 2011 season, and still felt the need to bunt for a single in his first at bat, raising his BA by 1 point, then "ASK" to be pulled from the game. To me that is the definition of selfish and in a sense taints his "accomplishment" more so than if Melky ends up with the batting title because.
While I am strongly anti-PEDs, this is not the home run record we are talking about. Testosterone promotes increased muscle mass, endurance, bone density and strength. Melky still has to hit the ball, and hit it places the fielder is not. In fact high testosterone levels can lead to blurred vision, if anything making his job of recogizing pitches and making good contact more difficult.
Again, while I deplore PEDs and their users, at the same time I can somewhat respect the reasoning behind taking them. The desire to win, to be the best. I can't say the same for sitting healthy.
In 1941 Ted Williams was asked to sit out a double header to protect his .400 BA. He refused. He said if he had sat, he didn't deserve the BA. I say the same for Reyes' batting title.
MTC. GL MF.
Marlins Fan said 08/19, 03:27 AM
What's up jermur; good to see you around. Good luck in the TD.
While I understand the distinction you're making about the differing levels of advantage that PEDs might give a contact hitter as opposed to a power hitter, I don't see how Reyes' alleged selfishness in removing himself from the game could possibly be worse than Cabrera using PEDs. After all, he wasn't using PEDs to make himself an inferior player, nay, he was using PEDs in a selfish effort to potentially max out his skill set and in the process earn a whole lot of money due to his newfound prowess on the diamond.
Reyes selfishly tried (and succeeded) in removing the possibility of choking away a batting title. It's lame, to be sure, but it didn't hurt his team at all (the Mets won 3-0 vs. the Reds) and all in all it simply made him look immature and scared.
Cabrera apparently blatantly broke existing rules regarding the usage of PEDs and in the process he upset the balance of the playing field. He tipped the scales in his own favor by cheating his way to superior yet ultimately empty skill set which completely outshined his natural ability.
Being lame and immature>cheating in pro sports
jermur613 said 08/20, 12:06 AM
I agree both players acted selfishly. And I would also concede that Melky was more selfish based on what both players actions cost their team.
However where I see the major difference lies with in the mindset behind it. Melkys actions stem from a desire to want to succeed. And ultimately through whatever contract or other selfish reasons he had the benefits to his team would only be positive, until he got caught that is.
Jose on the other hand, even though his actions really did not cost his team anything at the moment because they won, who knows how detrimental that could be to a young team. Jose was a vet on that team, he was supposed to be setting an example. What if Ike Davis decides to pull the same thing in a contract year? They let Jose do it.
While neither would be preferrable, give me the cheater over the quitter. Atleast the cheater is giving it his all and while you may lose him to suspension, it's better than "losing" someone who is still on the active roster.
One thing that you said that I would like to counter would be that Melky took the road less resistent. I disagree. To me there is no less resistant path, than the one not traveled. And that what Jose.
Marlins Fan said 08/20, 11:33 PM
Regarding the road less resistant, one thing we do know is that Cabrera failed a PED test. Meaning he was busted for using Performance Enhancing Drugs. I don't see how there is a path of less resistance than the path filled with Performance Enhancing Drugs.
Reyes made his path to a batting title less resistant by skipping an at bat or two. Whether or not he would've still won the batting title had he faced the music on those final at bats remains a mystery. He might've went oh-fer, in which case his BA would've dropped. Or he might've went 3-3, solidyfying his grip on the batting title.
We do know that PEDs make athletes more successful at their sport of choice. Case in point, Melky Cabrera's batting average. Before signing with the Royals in 2011 Cabrera's highest season BA was .280, way back in 2006.
As a Royal in 2011 Cabrera hit .305. He signed a nice contract with the Giants in 2012 and at the time of his suspension was hitting .346, well above his career average of .284 (which is fraudulent in itself because it includes his inflated 2012 ABs).
Sounds like his performance was enhanced to me.
Cabrera's title is more tainted because it's "enhanced".
jermur613 said 08/21, 03:20 AM
"If you're not cheating, you're not trying."
It's not a credo I live my life by, but some do. Alot of those people happen to be ball players. Whether it's the spitball, stealing signs, scuffing the ball or PEDs, cheating has been going on just as long as there has been pro baseball.
The first documented case of PEDs that can be found goes way back to 1889. Pitcher Pud Glavine was a major advocate of an elixir that was testosterone taken from the testicles of live animals. And thats just the first well known case, who knows how much further back it goes.
Just about the entire MLB was using amphetamines after WWII. The US government was experimenting with them and alot of the returning soldiers liked the "enhanced performance" it gave them and continued usage after returning home.
Some well known players who are little known for their PED usage include Babe Ruth(sheep testosterone), Mike Schmidt(greenies), Mickey Mantle(various concoctions). My point to this isn't that it has happened in the past so it's ok. It's that if Melky is tainted, so is the rest of baseball history, all of it.
Not always giving it 100% is a much more recent trend. Jose is more tainted.
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