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- 08/17/2012, 04:28PM ET
Reyes and Cabrera... which guy has the less valid batting title?
Marlins Fan said 08/18, 02:23 AM
I'm saying Cabrera's batting title (should he win it) is less valid than Reyes'
Sure, it was weak of Reyes to pull himself from a game after ensuring he'd win the title. It wasn't very competitive and it was borderline childish/selfish.
Bit it wasn't completely against the rules. Cabrera apparently knowingly used PED's in an effort to chemically enhance his game so any personal accomplishments/achievements must be taken with a grain of salt.
This is definitely a lesser of two evils type ordeal. Nobody won anything, really. Both guys took the path of least resistance to a batting title. But Cabrera's path was less resistant, if you will. He broke the rules; Reyes merely put himself over his team for part of one game out of a one hundred sixty two game season.
Neither of these guys should be writing home about what they've done, but if either of them feel compelled to grab some parchment along with a quill and ink, it'll be Reyes. What he did was corny but it wasn't flat out banned.
I like both of these players and I winced when I heard about both of these stories. But Cabrera is the only one who truly put an asterisk next to his accomplishment.
jermur613 said 08/18, 05:00 AM
Sometimes in life inaction is far more detrimental than action itself.
Reyes had only played 75% of the 2011 season, and still felt the need to bunt for a single in his first at bat, raising his BA by 1 point, then "ASK" to be pulled from the game. To me that is the definition of selfish and in a sense taints his "accomplishment" more so than if Melky ends up with the batting title because.
While I am strongly anti-PEDs, this is not the home run record we are talking about. Testosterone promotes increased muscle mass, endurance, bone density and strength. Melky still has to hit the ball, and hit it places the fielder is not. In fact high testosterone levels can lead to blurred vision, if anything making his job of recogizing pitches and making good contact more difficult.
Again, while I deplore PEDs and their users, at the same time I can somewhat respect the reasoning behind taking them. The desire to win, to be the best. I can't say the same for sitting healthy.
In 1941 Ted Williams was asked to sit out a double header to protect his .400 BA. He refused. He said if he had sat, he didn't deserve the BA. I say the same for Reyes' batting title.
MTC. GL MF.
Marlins Fan said 08/19, 03:27 AM
What's up jermur; good to see you around. Good luck in the TD.
While I understand the distinction you're making about the differing levels of advantage that PEDs might give a contact hitter as opposed to a power hitter, I don't see how Reyes' alleged selfishness in removing himself from the game could possibly be worse than Cabrera using PEDs. After all, he wasn't using PEDs to make himself an inferior player, nay, he was using PEDs in a selfish effort to potentially max out his skill set and in the process earn a whole lot of money due to his newfound prowess on the diamond.
Reyes selfishly tried (and succeeded) in removing the possibility of choking away a batting title. It's lame, to be sure, but it didn't hurt his team at all (the Mets won 3-0 vs. the Reds) and all in all it simply made him look immature and scared.
Cabrera apparently blatantly broke existing rules regarding the usage of PEDs and in the process he upset the balance of the playing field. He tipped the scales in his own favor by cheating his way to superior yet ultimately empty skill set which completely outshined his natural ability.
Being lame and immature>cheating in pro sports
jermur613 said 08/20, 12:06 AM
I agree both players acted selfishly. And I would also concede that Melky was more selfish based on what both players actions cost their team.
However where I see the major difference lies with in the mindset behind it. Melkys actions stem from a desire to want to succeed. And ultimately through whatever contract or other selfish reasons he had the benefits to his team would only be positive, until he got caught that is.
Jose on the other hand, even though his actions really did not cost his team anything at the moment because they won, who knows how detrimental that could be to a young team. Jose was a vet on that team, he was supposed to be setting an example. What if Ike Davis decides to pull the same thing in a contract year? They let Jose do it.
While neither would be preferrable, give me the cheater over the quitter. Atleast the cheater is giving it his all and while you may lose him to suspension, it's better than "losing" someone who is still on the active roster.
One thing that you said that I would like to counter would be that Melky took the road less resistent. I disagree. To me there is no less resistant path, than the one not traveled. And that what Jose.
Marlins Fan said 08/20, 11:33 PM
Regarding the road less resistant, one thing we do know is that Cabrera failed a PED test. Meaning he was busted for using Performance Enhancing Drugs. I don't see how there is a path of less resistance than the path filled with Performance Enhancing Drugs.
Reyes made his path to a batting title less resistant by skipping an at bat or two. Whether or not he would've still won the batting title had he faced the music on those final at bats remains a mystery. He might've went oh-fer, in which case his BA would've dropped. Or he might've went 3-3, solidyfying his grip on the batting title.
We do know that PEDs make athletes more successful at their sport of choice. Case in point, Melky Cabrera's batting average. Before signing with the Royals in 2011 Cabrera's highest season BA was .280, way back in 2006.
As a Royal in 2011 Cabrera hit .305. He signed a nice contract with the Giants in 2012 and at the time of his suspension was hitting .346, well above his career average of .284 (which is fraudulent in itself because it includes his inflated 2012 ABs).
Sounds like his performance was enhanced to me.
Cabrera's title is more tainted because it's "enhanced".
GL
jermur613 said 08/21, 03:20 AM
"If you're not cheating, you're not trying."
It's not a credo I live my life by, but some do. Alot of those people happen to be ball players. Whether it's the spitball, stealing signs, scuffing the ball or PEDs, cheating has been going on just as long as there has been pro baseball.
The first documented case of PEDs that can be found goes way back to 1889. Pitcher Pud Glavine was a major advocate of an elixir that was testosterone taken from the testicles of live animals. And thats just the first well known case, who knows how much further back it goes.
Just about the entire MLB was using amphetamines after WWII. The US government was experimenting with them and alot of the returning soldiers liked the "enhanced performance" it gave them and continued usage after returning home.
Some well known players who are little known for their PED usage include Babe Ruth(sheep testosterone), Mike Schmidt(greenies), Mickey Mantle(various concoctions). My point to this isn't that it has happened in the past so it's ok. It's that if Melky is tainted, so is the rest of baseball history, all of it.
Not always giving it 100% is a much more recent trend. Jose is more tainted.
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Comments (61) Add A Comment
He cannot win it now. The fifty game ban will not allow him to reach enough ABs....don't think so anyway
OlderthanDirt
Total Comments (2092)
He has 459. Will fall about 50 short. Only 44 game left in Giants season.
OlderthanDirt
Total Comments (2092)
It would be hard to argue Reyes here. Sure, he punked out by sitting in last game to protect his average, but Melky cheated. Cheating is worse than cowardice.
williewilliejuan
Total Comments (35197)
Melky for sure.
YankeesFan
Total Comments (14993)
Who would you take?
YankeesFan
Total Comments (14993)
No one suspended for using banned substances should even be considered for any award.......
~Foxy~
Springfield, MA
Total Comments (6831)
He still can win. New rules a few years back changed it so that people without as many AB's can still win the award.
All AB short of the qualifying mark count as an "out" and an AB.
Melky is only 1 AB short, which means he will get an 0/1 AB to qualify, leaving his average like .01 lower than what is is now.
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2121)
Yep. His 1 attempt will count as an out and have a very minimal impact on his stats.
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2121)
It's funny how everyone mentions Reyes sitting out the last game but no one mentions that Miguel Cabrera did the exact same thing in the AL last year and his own teammate was right behind him in 2nd place.
Justin Cyder
Total Comments (27577)
Correction. Martinez was 4th. It was Gonzo and Young who were behind Cabrera. Cabrera ended up sitting and beating them by 6 points. Reyes sat and beat Braun by 5 points. But for some reason Reyes is bashed and no one says a word about Cabrera. Must be a NY thing.
And I hate Reyes and his ridculous dancing and inability to keep his head in a game. He's the only guy I've ever seen picked off of 2nd base in consecutive games. Pathetic
Justin Cyder
Total Comments (27577)
Barry Bonds.
|
Total Comments (3792)
That's the Tony Gwynn rule, I would hope that didn't include players that cheated.....
~Foxy~
Springfield, MA
Total Comments (6831)
He still has the highest batting average at .359 if he can hang onto it, he has 426-AB and is projected to have 585-AB
~Foxy~
Springfield, MA
Total Comments (6831)
Cabrera sat out completely. He didn't pull himself after his 1st at bat. Not that it's any better... but it is a "bit" different
fvkasm2x
Edmonton, AB
Total Comments (2121)
Sorry, Mars, but I just don't see this as arguable. A better TD would be "Which is more tainted: Melky's batting title or Braun's MVP"
williewilliejuan
Total Comments (35197)
You don't know how much Melky's banned substance that he took helped him.
This season, he has not hit more HR and flyballs aren't turning into HRs likes they did for people like Bonds or Giambi. Instead, he is hitting less flyballs and more groundballs and linedrives, something we've never seen before as a result from a banned susbstance.
Plus, he was just getting incredibly lucky. His babip was nearly .380, which is one of the highest ever. If he continued to play this season, he would have seen regression simply because that is impossible to keep up. But I think his great numbers this season are more a result of dumb-luck than this banned substance he took.
Argos.
Total Comments (5417)
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