- 10/08/2012, 06:34PM ET
Darth Maim said 10/08, 09:20 PM
I am going to take Gretzky. For 3 reasons which I will support in my 3 arguments.
Reason #1: Statistical dominance
Wayne Gretzky has
1) has 4 of the top 10 goals scored in a season, including the #1 and 2 positions.
2) 10 of the best 11 single season assist in a season in NHL history.
3) 8 of the top 10 single season total points in a season.
4) the most career NHL goals scored.
5) the most career NHL assists.
6) has scored 2857 toal NHL points.
6a) second place is 970 points behind.
7) has scored the most playoff points.
8) has scored the most playoff goals.
9) is tied for first with career playoff winning goals.
10) has the most career playoff assists.
He is the most prolific statistical player in NHL history. By a very large margin.
Argument 2: Rebuttal of rights first argument and Gretzky's international career dominance.....
TnerB57 said 10/09, 05:18 AM
Very good topic idea, Darth, and good luck.
Babe Ruth. The greatest baseball player that ever lived. Just as Gretzky did, Babe Ruth re-wrote the record books during his 22-yr major league career. Babe Ruth held 56 major league records at the time of his retirement, and still held 54 of them at the time of his death. Many of the Babe's records still stand, even 77 years later, and some of them likely will never ever be broken, such as his ridiculous .847 slugging percentage from 1920, and his career .690 slugging percentage.
No one has led the league in HRs as many times as Ruth (12). No one has hit 40 or more home runs in a season more times than Ruth. Babe Ruth is still 2nd in RBIs, to Hank Aaron, 2297 to 2213, but it took Hank over 3000 at bats more to get the record.
Hell, if Ruth had started out as a position player, rather than spending his first three and a portion of a fourth as a pitcher, he very likely still would be the all time home run king.
Remember, every one that has surpassed the Babe did so by playing longer seasons and getting thousands more at bats.
Oh yeah, I got more.
Darth Maim said 10/09, 12:42 PM
Good luck to you FTT57,
"Hell, if Ruth...he very likely still would be the all time home run king."
Hey, not a fantasy TD. Just the stats Jack! Here is my argument for #99 in stats:
1) Ruth led in HR's 12 times...Gretzky led in assists 16 times.
2) Ruth has 84 less RBI's than 1st...Gretzky is 970 points ahead of 2nd place.
3) Gretzky has more professional records than Ruth.
4) Is all-time leader in more categories than Ruth.
Reason # 2: International Presence and Team Championships
Ruth was great in the American League. Gretzky was great in the NHL, Olympic Arena, and on the world championship stage. More on the world stage than in 1920's America.
1). Gretzky won 5 Stanley Cups.
2). He won 3 gold and 1 silver medal (1984, 87. 91) with the Canadian National Team Canada Cup Championships.
He made every team he was on better...not just one or two.
Argument 3: Final Summation.....
TnerB57 said 10/10, 04:42 AM
Yes, Babe Ruth led the league in HRs 12 times. You use assists as a favorable comparison for Gretzky. I contend that, although one can't truly compare the two sports, a more accurate comparison to Ruth's 12 HR crowns would be Gretzky's times leading the league in goals scored - which turns out to be 5.
As far as striking the object and creating a direct point for your team, Ruth was far and away the more prolific leader of his time than Gretzky was. Gretzky was a flashy finesse player that was able to benefit mightily from the NHL's very strange assist rule (that's another TD altogether) in order to amass his very impressive point totals.
Lets look at it another way: Babe Ruth hit a HR every 11.76 at bats. Only Mark McRoider bettered that, and he don't count. Wayne Gretzky averaged .601 goals per game. Both Mario Lemieux and Mike Bossy had better averages for their careers.
What you are now trying to make me believe is equivalent to saying Magic Johnson was more prolific than Michael Jordan.
Ruth is the bottom line more prolific athlete here.
Darth Maim said 10/11, 10:58 AM
Prolific: "characterized by abundant production"
This definition fits Wayne Gretzky to a tee. If you were to summarize his professional production over his career you would find:
1). His is the leading scorer in NHL history by almost 1000 points.
2). He has 8 of the 10 highest point totals in league history.
3). He is the only player in NHL history to have a 200 point season...and he has 4 of them.
4). The highest point total in the NHL was 152 before he skated professionally. The record is now 215! 63 more than the previous record.
5). He also scored 420 points in back-to-back seasons.
6). He led the league in assists at age 19 and at age 37.
Even though #99 has been retired for 13 years he is still the leading scorer in NHL history.
Gretzky holds the:
single season goals, assists, and scoring records.
career goals, assists, and scoring records.
When all is said and done...Gretzky was more prolific than the Babe.
Great TD FTT57, hope to do it again in the future.....
TnerB57 said 10/11, 02:02 PM
Ok, to counter-summarize:
1) Babe Ruth is still the greatest per at bat producer in history
2) Led the league in HRs 12 times (still a record)
3) Prior to Ruth, no player had ever hit 30 HRs. Ruth hit more than 50 4 times.
4) The HR record prior to Ruth was 27. Ruth hit 60. More than double.
5) Ruth had a slugging percentage over .840 in back-to-back seasons. Untouchable mark.
6) On top of all his power numbers, Ruth was a career .342 hitter!
Now, things that the Babe's records have had to endure:
Smaller ball parks
The fact of the matter is that, even 77 years later, nobody has approached what the Babe was able to do per at bat. You can take both Bonds and McGwire out of the equation to to roids and smaller ball parks, and the only reason Aaron surpassed Babe was due to longer seasons, which resulted in 3965 more at bats.
As for Gretzky, per game stats don't favor him as strongly. Two players scored more goals per game, and Lemieux is very very close in points per game. These stats tend to bring the Great One back to the field.
Fine TD, Darth, GL!
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