- 10/30/2012, 02:54PM ET
CJ H. said 10/30, 02:54 PM
First off, let's define "great." If you are great, then you are extremely, extremely, extremely, valuable to your team.
Dennis Rodman was definitely valuable to the Pistons, Bulls, and Spurs.
Michael Jordan has said, "defense wins championships." Dennis definitely fitted this category. I have seen him guard Magic Johnson and I have also seen him guard Shaquille O'Neal.
Dennis was a back to back defensive player of the year award winner (1990 and 1991).
He was a 7 time all defensive first team placement and a one time all defensive second team placement.
His rebounding was second to none when it comes to power fowards. His rebounds per game average was once 18.7!
This is the least important to me when judging players but I might as well say it. He is also a 5 time NBA champion.
Hyped78 said 10/30, 05:45 PM
See, the problem isn't whether Rodman was a great player or not. He obviously was a great player, a tremendous rebounder and defender and a guy who mattered to his teams, helping those win championships.
You made that point very clear.
The problem is whether he is good enough to displace other Power Forwards from the Top 50.
More than that, and because comparison across different eras is tricky, the question is how does Rodman stack up in comparison to his contemporary PFs in the top 50.
Rodman was a great defender but also very limited on the offensive side of the game. Would you place him in the top 50 list instead of:
- Charles Barkley
- Larry Bird (SF)
- Karl Malone
- Kevin McHale
- Scottie Pippen (SF)
I don't think so.
Moreover, after the "50 Greatest Players in NBA History" list was voted and announced, other forwards have made their mark in the NBA, while being superior to the Worm. I am thinking of Tim Duncan and Kevin Garnett.
Rodman was a tremendous player.
But not a top 50 all-time NBA player.
CJ H. said 10/30, 06:10 PM
You're right when you say Charles Barkley, Larry Bird, Karl Malone, Kevin McHale, and Scottie Pippen could be put ahead of Rodman.
I disagree with McHale and Pippen though.
Here is the reason why:
In 1988 the Pistons and Rodman won 54 games. They were 20-4 with Rodman in the starting lineup!
In 1990 the Pistons won 59 games. They were 34-9 with Rodman in the starting lineup!
In 1993 the Pistons win 40 games. They go 36-26 with Rodman in starting lineup and 4-20 without him in the starting lineup!
In 1995 the Spurs were 42-7 with Rodman, 20-13 without!
In my opinion when you put up these numbers, you definitely are considered one of the 50 greatest players of all time.
In 1987 (Without Scottie Pippen ) the Bulls were 40-42. In 1988 (With Scottie) they were 50-32. Good improvements but nothing close to Rodman.
McHale was a part in the 1986 Celtics championship but he wasn't badly needed.
Hyped78 said 10/31, 08:22 PM
I am a Pistons fan, so you can understand that I value what Rodman did in Detroit.
But winning championships and being on winning teams isn't all that matters. See Horry, Robert.
What you are basically saying is that you would take out Pippen of the Top 50, to place in Rodman, if it came to that?
Pippen has a clearly superior career to that of Rodman.
7-time All-Star vs 2-time.
7-time All-NBA vs 2-time.
You highlighted Rodman's defense. He was an 8-time All-defense. Well, Pippen was a 10-time All-defense.
And, of course, you also mentioned Rodman's championships. They were 5. Pippen won 6.
On the other hand, you would also take McHale out of the top 50 to place in Rodman, if it came to that?
7-time All-Star vs 2-time. McHale was a 6-time all-defense himself.
Rodman's scoring average was 7.3 PPG. A great rebounder but not exactly an elite scorer. McHale scored almost 18 PPG for his career (17.9, to be exact).
There's a reason why Rodman was only called to the All-star game twice. Because he was an elite defender and rebounder but not an elite all-around player.
Certainly not elite enough to be Top 50, ahead of Pippen and McHale.
CJ H. said 10/31, 08:32 PM
I put Rodman ahead of Scottie but that doesn't mean Scottie is out of the top 50.
In fact, I would put Scottie just 2 or 3 spots behind Rodman.
I would put Rodman ahead of McHale but only a couple spots away.
You compared Scottie's defense with Rodman.
Scottie could guard point guards, shooting guards, and small fowards.
Rodman could guard point guards, shooting guards, small fowards, power fowards, and centers.
This proves he is a more versatile defender.
The reason I believe Rodman should be in the top 50 is because of his winning.
You saw the statistics above. When Rodman was playing, his team tremendously improved. When you contribute this much to a team there is no doubt in my mind you should be in the top 50.
I dont care if Scottie or McHale could score. I want people who can contribute to the team the most. Im sure McHale and Scottie would contribute to any team but Dennis was amazing when it comes to contributing to a team.
Dennis Rodman deserves to be in the top 50.
Hyped78 said 11/01, 08:19 AM
You don't care about scoring and you failed to say who, then, would you take out of the Top 50.
You can't have a Top 50 with 51 players, and seeing as though you you wouldn't take McHale or Pippen out of the Top 50, you simply failed to state whose place would Rodman take.
I guess we will never know.
Yes, Rodman contributed.
But he was also the 3rd player in the Pistons roster, behind Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars.
And he was the 3rd player in the Bulls roster, behind Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen (regardless of you thinking that Rodman was better than Pippen).
A great player and contributor, no doubt, but not good enough for a Top 50 all-time, especially if compared to the other guys who were actually selected to that list.
Being an elite defender doesn't mean you are an elite all-around player, and that much is certainly true with Rodman for his entire career.
His offensive limitations prevent him from having a place in the Top 50.
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