- 08/16/2013, 03:44PM ET
CuntryBlumpkin said 08/16, 03:47 PM
I say no
What can Manuel do when last year's ace is 5-13, Halladay hasn't pitched hardly at all this season and Cliff Lee is really the only starter doing anything and pretty much the entire bull pen hurt, and the ones that aren't hurt are either sucking or suspended the rest of the year.
The Phillies have been a disappointment, but no team could win with 1 decent starting pitcher and no bull pen.
No team could win with their first baseman and center fielder hurt most of the year, an old, declining short stop and a right fielder that never played right field in his life until this year.
Right now the Phillies are sending a lineup out that looks like this(with a lot of different orders along the way)
And instead of trading some of the dead weight and start rebuilding, they stand pat and they stand around 20 games back.
A manager is only as good as his players and his players have all either not produced, have been hurt or have been suspended.
I would have looked at Reuben Amaro before Manuel.
MF's Posse said 08/19, 04:02 AM
Yes he did.
It hurts to say because he is a great guy and a pretty good manager, however it was time to make the move. Maybe not the exact moment they did it, but shortly after if not before they did.
Despite popular opinion, they Phillies still have some pretty decent talent, probably not enough to hang with the Braves but certainly enough to be ahead of the rest of the teams in the division and as I type this, they're in 4th. Behind the Nats and Mets. The METS!
The major problem with this team is philosphy, Charlie manages the long ball. The team is transitioning/evolving into a small ball team. Charlie is a players manager, the team is at a point where they need more of a general. With the mix of young guys and vets stuck in their way, someone to help force their hand is what is ideal.
When this team was in their prime and smashing balls at an insane rate, Charlie was the perfect fit. Not so much any more.
Charlies teams are notoiously 2nd half teams. Had they performed better in the 1st half just last year, they may have won the division, and saved his job. But with this division rapidly improving you can't afford to waste any time. Now was the time.
CuntryBlumpkin said 08/19, 06:25 PM
I'm just not seeing the talent you claim the Phillies have. They are one of the oldest teams in the league, and being an old team generally means being an injury prone team. Charlie can't help it that Ryan Howard, Roy Halladay and Ben Revere has missed most of the season. Charlie can't help that Bastardo and Ruiz have both been suspended for PED use.
And he sure can't help it that the player Reuben Amaro signed are old and underperforming(Rollins, Michael Young), and he definitely can't help that he's forced to use a guy with no prior experience in right field in right field.
No manager can win the the roster the Phillies have right now. It looked good on paper at the beginning of the year, but it has proven to be lacking in youth and ability to stay healthy.
Give Charlie some good, healthy players and he can win.
Who are the only two managers to win 5 straight division titles since division play began? One is Bobby Cox, the other is Charlie Manuel.
Who managed the Phillies to the back to back World Series winning one with a historically bad franchise? Charlie Manuel.
The blame is on Amaro, not Manuel.
MF's Posse said 08/20, 06:17 PM
The blame does not fall squarely on Charlie's shoulders. Should Amaro share in some of that blame? Sure. But someone had to pay for the performance and Charlie is that guy.
All the winning you threw out there is 100% correct. He's the winningest manager in team history. Had the winningest team in the history of the club with 102 wins. However when evaluating the short term, that's on the manager.
All of that winning the Phiilies had done, a lot of guys could have won with that roster. Ruben doesn't miss manage the bullpen. Charlie is the one who was continually marching guys like Durbin out there, after he proved to not be performing at all. Charlie is the one who sets the line up card. Batting Rollins leadoff and letting him go up there to hit homers.
Rubens one mortal sin has been to sign Howard to that contract, 2 years before FA. Other than that he has brought in top tier talent while never giving away any pieces that have done anything in the bigs. The Youngs are on expiring contracts with replacements in the pipeline. Utleys contract is team friendly.
Rollins can still play, but someone need to tell him he lost his pop. Charlie never did.
CuntryBlumpkin said 08/20, 06:37 PM
Why should CHarlie be the guy? Is he the one that assembled this lack luster roster? Is he the one that knew his team was aging but each of the last two years has refused to start to build a new core? Is he the reason why Michael Young is still in Philadelphia and will leave at season's end with no prospects to show?
Everyone knew that the Phillies had a short window for success. Charlie knew it, Reuben had to have known it. One of them couldn't do anything about it. One of them could, but basically did below the bare minimum.
Reuben Amaro assembled this roster, not Charlie Manuel.
I'm not even saying Amaro should be fired. What I'm saying is Tony LaRussa couldn't win with this roster.
Instead of firing Charlie, they should have dumped Michael Young for prospects, and try to get younger and give Charlie some good, young players to build a team around.
Charlie has proven to be a World Series caliber manager, but like any other manager in history, he needs half ass decent ball players to win games.
Charlie should still be managing the Phillies.
MF's Posse said 08/21, 02:02 AM
Someone has to pay the price. When the managers philosophy conflicts with the direction the team is heading, unfortunately he has to be the guy. Especially when the man in waiting is someone who manages the way the team is being built.
No doubt Charlie is a good manager, there is no question about that. The question however is, is Charlie the best fit going forward? No. He is not.
His guys love playing for him. The reason Jim Thome signed with the Phillies was because they promised him Charlie would be given a chance to manage if Bowa got fired. That says alot about a man when someone is willing to go to bat for you like that. And his teams historically have. From 05 to 12 his 2nd half winning percentage is 61% while the 1st half is 52%. That's a pretty sick rate. When push comes to shove his guys busted it for him.
This season the Phillies won 5 of 19 since the ASG under him. Barely 20%. Even last year it was 58% with a not much better line up.
His difference in philosophy combined with what seems a stale message meant one thing. Sorry, Charlie. This was the end of the road.
Nice to TD with you, Outlaw. Good luck.
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