FanNation - The Republic of Sport

i think i argued the hell out of that one, and it only took me 30 minutes! I need a life

Tulo had GREAT offensive numbers for a rookie SS...set record for homers and RBIS by a rookie SS...but he also played the best defense of any SS in baseball...

Braun was the worse defensive starter in baseball...at any position...and he's a converted SS, you'd think he'd have some range, but he's last in range factor and last in zone rating for 3Bs...not only does he make a lot of errors, he doesn't get to the ball either...

When I think about awards like MVP and ROY, I look at the whole picture, not just offense...if Braun was middle of the road defensively, cool...but he wasn't

To quote a site I read a few days ago:

Milwaukee Brewers 3B Ryan Braun is an amazing hitter. But to call him a butcher on defense is an insult to knife-wielding swine slicers. In fact, it is not an exaggeration to call Braun the worst defensive player of any starter in the Major Leagues. Braun's is fielding is so atrocious, it should be enough for Colorado shortstop Troy Tulowitzki to win the National League Rookie of the Year. Will it happen? Probably not. Writers often forget there are two parts to the game and concentrate solely on offensive numbers.

John...That last sentence is what I've been saying for years...and it comes to all awards...I mean, Tulo was, by far, the best fielding SS not only in the NL but in baseball and he didn't even win the gold glove...
check this out...

In the NL balloting. Ryan Braun barely edged Troy Tulowitzki, 128-126, to pick up the hardware. This was a very tough call, and it's not clear whether the closeness of the vote reflects the difference in the performance of each player's team, a desire by the voters to show that they're not cowed by big hitting numbers, or an actual understanding of the defensive difference between the two.

That difference was astronomical, probably enough to overcome Braun's staggering edge at the plate. In about two-thirds of a season -- remember, the Brewers didn't call Braun up until May 24 -- he was worth 50 runs above a replacement-level hitter. Tulowitzki, who played from Opening Day, was worth 30. Defensively, however, Braun was wretched, costing the Brewers 15 runs as compared to a replacement-level third baseman. Tulowitzki, meanwhile, was a terrific defensive shortstop, saving the Rockies 46 runs above replacement.

When you translate those performances to wins, you find that Braun was worth 3.9 wins above replacement (WARP), and Tulowitzki a whopping 8.5 WARP.

This isn't just the difference between the two in one system. John Dewan of Baseball Info Solutions estimates that the difference between the two defensively at more than 50 runs, and the gap between them will be comparable whether you use Ultimate Zone Rating or Probabilistic Model of Range or any of the play-by-play systems out there that evaluate defensive performance. Ryan Braun was an amazing hitter in 2007, and in most seasons would have deserved the Rookie of the Year Award. This year, however, he was up against arguably the best defensive player in the league, and a good hitter in his own right.

if you get to the bigs, you SHOULD be able to do all parts of the job...not just hit...and I don't think you can be award the best rookie in your league if you can only do half the job...no matter how well you do it...

'So, lets for the sake of argument, say that every single error Braun made resulted in a run. thats 26 Runs, 15 more than Tulo would surrender. But lets say that Braun got 609 AB', the same as Tulo.

This award isn't about projecting what he WOULD have done if he had a full season...it's about what was ACTUALLY done...

and he produced more in less time than Tulo.


I know that I will probably lose this argument, but I like a challenge, and I thougt i could make a good argument

you DID make a good argument...

but here's the thing...corner outfielders traditionally produce more than middle infielders...Tulo didn't put up Braun numbers offennively, but he DID set records for HR and RBIs by a rookie SS...and he was the best fielder, by far, at one of the 2 hardest postions in baseball...

Since you bring up wha tBraun would have doine if he had played the whole season, If Braun had played since the beginning, he might have set a record for errors in a season...see, not only was he the worse fielder as far as fielding % of any starter in baseball at any positon, he was last in range factor and zone rating...

'but he DID set records for HR and RBIs by a rookie SS.'

I meant NL rookie SS...:-)

corner infielders traditionally produce more than Middle, now, if we compare 3B to SS< i wholeheartedly disagree. I would say with the exception of A-Rod, SS are better hitters than 3B these days.

Good hitting SS
Jimmy Rollins
Hanley Ramirez
Jose Reyes
Tulowitzki
Edgar Renteria
Derek Jeter
Miguel Tejada
Orlando Cabrera
Johnny Peralta
maybe more


good hitting 3B
Aramis Ramirez
Braun
Zimmerman is pretty good
A-Rod
Miguel Cabrera
Mike Lowell
NOMAR!!!!!!!! lol

there are probably more, but these are who pop into my head. I think in todays game, there are more SS that are very good hitters than 3B.

Did you conveniently forget David Wright, Chipper Jones, Garrett Atkins?

...and I meant, power hitting and run producing, not singles hitting...my apologies for not being more clear. Tulo was 5th in homers this season for SS...his homer total would have been tied for 8th in homers...

didn't finish my thought...

Tulo was 5th in homers this season for SS...his homer total would have been tied for 8th in homers for 3Bs...

Besides, how can you get an award for being the best rookie when you're the worse fielder in baseball?

I mean, there are two parts of the game, offense AND defense...Tulo was great at both (especially for a SS), and he was the best fielding SS in the game...as a rookie...Braun had great offensive numbers, but was the worse fielder of all starters in baseball, at any position...

Seriously...should the rookie of the year have t0o be pulled late in games cause his defense is THAT bad...? Check it out....

Third base may or may not be his long-term spot. A poor fielder, Braun had to be removed for defensive purposes in late innings, which not only embarrassed him but also eliminated a bat that produced the highest slugging percentage for any rookie in big-league history.

It is possible that Braun, who became a third baseman mostly after he turned pro, will learn to adequately play the position. Ned Yost has requested that he take 1,000 ground balls a day during the off-season, a drill that Braun will soon begin in California. Mets third baseman David Wright became a passable defender, so, yes it is possible.

Problem is, the Brewers don't have a lot of time for Braun to demonstrate that he won't hurt them defensively. The Brewers lost the NL Central by two games last season partly because they were a bad defensive team. The window of opportunity in the division will continue to narrow with Chicago's money and St. Louis' resolve.

After Braun's presentation to the local media Tuesday, I asked general manager Doug Melvin where the Brewers will eventually play their natural-born hitter. Melvin said Braun was completely open to change, that he would willingly go to the left-field spot vacated by Geoff Jenkins and learn the position.

Presumably, Braun would do less defensive damage in an outfield corner if he doesn't report to Maryvale in three months with a better grip on the infield corner. But that's a spring-training decision for Yost to make. In the meantime, it gives Melvin more options in the free-agent market. He could, for example, sign a third baseman.

yes i did conveniently forget, sorry :)

I'm sorry if I ruined this TD, guys. Wasn't my intention

its cool, i don't care, I enjoyed the input

crap, forgot to put errors in, lol.

in short, Tulo was much better

Jim L is taking over. He really like Tulo because he did it to my TD about this also.

also, when they're winning streak at the end of the regular season started, he was batting .295. In those games he went down to .291

I love TT's (say it like what you think I'm saying).

Vote to Braun, however.

TlTTY!

once again, amazing arguments by nomarfan...