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  • December 18, 2007 03:15 PM ET

Who was a better defender, Wilt or Russell?

Favrefan needs sleep (226-83-14) vs SkyBill40 (7-3-0)
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You said in a comment earlier that Wilt was every bit the defender that Bill Russell was. I disagree wholeheartedly. I believe Wilt was perhaps the fourth best defensive center ever behind Russell, Robinson and Hakeem, and that Russell was the greatest defender in NBA history. I'd like to see your evidence that puts Wilt over Russell in terms of defense alone.


A worthy opponent.. Finally... Let me start by citing a few sources for some of what I'm about to say:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/chambwi01.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain

Chamberlain, due to his size, strength, and sheer dominance of the game elicited many of the rule changes to the league that makes it what it is today. From the Wikipedia reference, "He was also responsible for several rule changes, such as widening the lane, regarding inbounding the ball and shooting free throws." No one player has ever forced a league to make such dramatic changes to their rules and no one will again. Chamberlain was a freak of nature.

Much of the rest of the basis of argument is sheer speculation and posturing alone. Unfortunately, both Chamberlain and Russell played in an era devoid of thorough record and stat keeping as we have now; thus, no tallies of steals, blocks, or offensive/defensive rebounds. However, in his 11 seasons, Wilt was first in the league in total rebounds and rebounds per game. Russell was the only one to eclipse him, and that was only for two seasons.

It's a toss up... Russell as pure defense or Wilt with both. I'll take Wilt.


Thanks for playing along.

Yes, Wilt did change the way the game was played. But that was because of his offensive prowess. Everyone knows about this, and this TD is about defensive accomplishments. In fact, you naming Wilt's offensive abilities helps me in a way.

See, Wilt was an absolute juggernaut on offense and had a serious size advantage on Russell. Yet somehow Russell managed to defend him better than anyone ever could. On the flip side, in many of their meeting Russell actually scored MORE points than his average (don't take this as fact, I remember reading somewhere but don't remember where). So Russell could slow down Wilt, but not vice versa.

Rebounds don't have a whole lot to do with defense, and even so it isn't like Russell was dominated on the boards. He average somelike like .2 less than Wilt over the course of his career.

This TD isn't about who you would rather have, it's about who was a better defender. The "who was better" TD has been driven into the ground, but it has always, since Wilt started playing, been a close argument. If it's such a heated debate, and Wilt was so much better on offense, it leads to Russell as a much better defender.


Again, glad I have a good opponent.

It is true that Wilt was an unstoppable force on the offensive end and Russell defended him better than anyone else could. The same could be said, arguably of course, that Wilt guarded Russell better than anyone else. It is also arguable at best to say that Wilt could not slow down Russell and that Russell neutralized Wilt. In a foot race, I'd take Bill, too. As for size, four inches doesn't mean much anymore but maybe then it was huge. Who knows for sure?

As far as rebounding is concerned, I know quite a few who would be rather insulted to not consider rebounds as a measure of defense. Rebounds are a player or team's way of limiting another team's scoring and should thusly be considered. Each player's rebounding totals are pretty much a wash as you've stated, but Wilt did have a sizeable gap in most instances over Bill when comparing their figures per season head to head (easy since it's usually 1-2). Again, that says a lot.

It's a pity that shots blocked wasn't kept back then. Although the totals would be high and perhaps close, I feel that Wilt would still have the higher tally head to head. Speculation once again.


Russell was much shorter than Wilt. Four inches is a sizable advantage, not to mention the 40 or so pounds. That's like Lebron trying to guard Tim Duncan.

As for rebounding, it doesn't reflect individual defense. It shows good positioning and rebounding skills, but not low post defense.

I will delve a little further on my last point of my last argument here. Many people consider Russell and Wilt equals, or near enough so. I would assume you are one of them. For the sake of argument let's say they were equal.

Unquestioningly, Wilt was far better on offense. Even if Russell was the main focus on offense I bet he wouldn't have put up more than 25-30 ppg, and Wilt put up 40-50 ppg. In other words, Wilt had a gigantic offensive edge on Russell.

Once again, assuming they are equals or near to it, that would mean that Russell must either have a huge edge in one particular area or a bunch of small advantages in other areas. We know it wasn't rebounding or passing, and that both were great leaders, so he didn't have a bunch of small advantages. He must have had one huge advantage: defense. That was his edge, head-to-head or otherwise. He was a better defender.


I will concede to you that Russell's height was perhaps overshadowed by another ability or abilities in general. He has a great basketball mind, especially for defense. His speed and agility due to being shorter and lighter give him that edge. Again, we can't say for sure.

Rebounding does, to some degree, reflect individual defense due to being able to contain and box out your defender and thus secure better position to secure the ball. Wilt had a height and sizeable strength advantage, so maybe that is why he did better each season against Russell. Numbers are numbers, but I realize they don't tell the entire tale.

I won't bother with offense as that's neither the gist of this nor even an argument in general. The better player need not be mentioned.

Finally, I cannot say that the word "defense" can be measured accurately unless you consider ALL of the facets of their games which are, unfortunately, incomplete. We need to consider rebounds, steals, blocks to accurately measure that word to which both are considered the absolute best: defense.

That said, and the historical record of what we have on my side, Wilt it the better defender.

Thanks. Great job. :)

Comments (27) Add A Comment

December 18, 2007  04:02 PM ET
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Best of luck, my friend. I appreciate your challenge and expect nothing but the best from such a worthy opponent. :)

December 18, 2007  04:12 PM ET
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Thank you rookie. Enjoy fannation.

December 18, 2007  04:16 PM ET
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bill russel was better bc he dominated wilt. wilt didnt dominate russel....thats the difference.

December 18, 2007  04:25 PM ET
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Vote to Skybill. Chamberlain changed the game both offensively and defensively.

I'm going to disagree with theback about Russell dominating Chamberlain. Russell does have the rings, but Russell had the better team around him.

And Favrefan: Skybill isn't a rookie. He's been here for awhile. He's just new to the whole TD world.

December 18, 2007  04:28 PM ET
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Russell

December 18, 2007  04:28 PM ET
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Russell

December 18, 2007  04:28 PM ET
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Hova, the TD was about defense, not offense

December 18, 2007  04:29 PM ET
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Skybill doing a TD???

Online open mouth speechless-ness

December 18, 2007  04:32 PM ET
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Dj: I don't get challenged often (first time, acutally) and only partake in ones I feel are worth something more than "stat stuffing". My opponent is definitely good, and I value that. I take someone's record (albeit minor) into consideration and focus more on their thoughtfulness on a topic. I like to do a little research first.

December 18, 2007  04:38 PM ET
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ilt having a higher amount of total blocks head to heat with Russel? Give me a break, Bill was the greatest shotblockker of all time. There is no disagreement on that. Bill Russel had the ability to score on anyone, but he did not in the interest of the team. Against Wilt, they needed him to score more, so he did, despite Wilt's defense. Wilt, on the other hand, who everybody agree's is the better offensive player, could not score more when playing the Celtics, even though they needed him to, because of Bill's defense.

December 18, 2007  04:41 PM ET
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Garet: Size, strength, and ability count for lots when evaluating both players defensively. Russell's timing and length give him good percentage to swat that weak stuff. As has been mentioned, Wilt had a size advantage and was a leaper as well. It's speculation since no tallies have ever been recorded, but you MAY be right in your assumption that Russell would prevail. Again, assumption and nothing more.

December 18, 2007  04:45 PM ET
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Wilt's main defensive advantage was sheer size and strength. Russell was a more talented defender because he wasn't as big an strong. That specific example doesn't make Russell a better defender, I just wanted to point out the difference.

December 18, 2007  04:48 PM ET
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My bad. Aah well...Laker fan.

Chamberlain. The vote still stands.

December 18, 2007  04:51 PM ET
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Good arguments on both sides, but Wilt had more to work with in terms of size, yet Russell did more with what he had.

December 18, 2007  05:01 PM ET
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It's a pity that people can't wait until ALL of the arguments have been made before they vote. If I lose, so be it. However, that facet alone makes me rather bitter.

December 18, 2007  05:05 PM ET
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Used to be that people could vote before the person accepting the throwdown made an argument. That was crap.

December 18, 2007  05:12 PM ET
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Fans can always change the vote Skybill

I do all time when I come back and check

Great TD guys

December 18, 2007  05:19 PM ET
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Yeah.. I know what you mean, Favre.

DJ: SOME fans, like you, pay attention to a TD and may change their minds. Most probably are a one-and-done sort and don't bother to monitor it. I guess that's the way it goes. Oh well.

December 18, 2007  06:48 PM ET
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Have to say...I only know both from watching old highlights and stats, so I am not a fully informed voter here.

Having said that, Wilt was a monster player. Think about it...MJ's career high scoring averages was what...37ppg? Wilt average a !@#$%^&* 50ppg!

But since we are talking about defense, I have to give Russell the edge due to all the rings he got, and the fact that everytime someone mentions about the best defensive player in history, it's Russell's name that pops up (not Wilt).

I'd like to return the favor for your vote yesterday, Skybill, but doing so would violate my believe.

Let's have a new TD...I bet in 10 years, we all will be comparing my man Oden to Russell as the greatest defensive player ever. =)

BTW, I lost my TD by one freaking vote, and Hova pulled a no show on me.

 
December 18, 2007  06:56 PM ET
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This argument will go on as long as there are basketball fans. In reality there is no comparison. Chamberlain was far and away the better player. He scored more points, got more rebounds, blocked more shots. He even told the press in July that he would lead the league in assists in the upcoming season. Then went out and did it.
Unfortunately most of fan nation never had the opportunity to see for themselves. For that reason my friend Bill will probably lose this TD. You just had to be there.

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