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Ortiz would give Sox chance to counter

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08:19 AM ET 11.16 | David Ortiz gave up some bargaining leverage on Tuesday, in exchange for sending a message to Boston. [Ortiz] has sung the same tune for the last five years, and he won't stop just because he's a free agent and technically hurting his bargaining position: The designated hitter wants to return to the Red Sox. In fact, Ortiz said yesterday, if he receives an offer from another team that he's considering accepting, he will give the Sox a chance to counter it. "Of course," he said. "You know that. The Red Sox will always be the first option." That's in marked contrast to closer Jonathan Papelbon, who acknowledged he didn't bother calling the Red Sox after getting a four-year, $50 million deal with the Phillies.

Boston Herald

David Ortiz, Getty Images David Ortiz, Getty Images
November 16, 2011  09:11 AM ET

This one is going to get real interesting. He's been the face of the franchise for 9 years and a huge fan favorite. But he's a one dimensional player who really takes up 2 spots on your roster. Does hit for power, but also hits into a ton of double plays, which kill potential big innings. IMO it's time to let him go and replace him with a player like Carlos Beltran, who can DH vs righties and play RF vs lefties. It would give the new manager a lot more flexibility with the everyday line up, and allow him to give everyday players like Youkilis a semi rest by giving him a chance to DH when Beltran is in the field.

November 16, 2011  09:16 AM ET

Phillies overpaid. Good luck with that!

Comment #3 has been removed
November 16, 2011  09:57 AM ET
QUOTE(#3):

It'd be fun to have him DH for the Yankees.

Not gonna happen. Montero will have that role and catch some. Cashman knows he needs to get younger, not older.

November 16, 2011  10:19 AM ET

i love the sox and big papi, my thing is that our farm system isnt that great right now, omly a few prospects that are projected to make any kind of real impact at the majors. the 2004 team was an amazing story that will be talked about for the next 50 years. however they had a lot of older players that had contracts that were up that off season. theo did the smart thing and allowed most of them to walk and built the farm system that next draft. we already have the phillies first round and supplemental round pick. i say that if cherington wants to build for the future like theo did he needs to let papi walk take the draft picks and get some more guys into our system. that would give us 6 picks in the first and supplemental rounds this year which would be huge. make a trade for one of the startes rumored to be on the market, and sign a #5 starter. id love for the sox to go get gio gonzales from oakland. sign him to an extension and he will help ease the hole when beckett leaves. lavarnway can DH and get experience at catcher, have reddick and kalish platoon in rf.

Comment #6 has been removed
Comment #7 has been removed
November 16, 2011  11:17 AM ET
QUOTE(#7):

Eees okay mang, we gots DEEP pockets!

I hope you have anxiety medication to go with your deep pockets. The last few years clean 9th innings were few and far between for him. He wanted Rivera money but couldn't pitch like Rivera. He needs deception now as his fastball is straight and not as fast as it was when he broke into the majors. Good hitters can time the fastball. I predict Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay will be getting a few no decisions each this year when Paps blows some saves for them.

November 16, 2011  11:46 AM ET
QUOTE(#8):

I hope you have anxiety medication to go with your deep pockets. The last few years clean 9th innings were few and far between for him. He wanted Rivera money but couldn't pitch like Rivera. He needs deception now as his fastball is straight and not as fast as it was when he broke into the majors. Good hitters can time the fastball. I predict Cliff Lee and Roy Halladay will be getting a few no decisions each this year when Paps blows some saves for them.

I was (politely) challenged by Slinky the other day when I suggested pretty much the same thing. I pointed out how his WHIP was trending up. Slink gave me the one-year trend from 2010 to 2011, which makes Paps look brilliant (in a contract year, of course).

I did a little research, and calculated WHIP stats for Paps and Mo going back to the first year Papelbon pitched more than 50 innings. Here it is.

PAPELBON
2006 -- 0.776
2007 -- 0.771
2008 -- 0.952
2009 -- 1.147
2010 -- 1.269
2011 -- 0.933

Rivera
2006 -- 0.960
2007 -- 1.122
2008 -- 0.665
2009 -- 0.905
2010 -- 0.833
2011 -- 0.897

While Papelbon is still very good, he isn't the same pitcher who was untouchable in 2007. And something tells me his style of pitching won't age as well as Mo's.

We shall see... Best of luck Jonathan.

November 16, 2011  11:54 AM ET
QUOTE(#9):

I was (politely) challenged by Slinky the other day when I suggested pretty much the same thing. I pointed out how his WHIP was trending up. Slink gave me the one-year trend from 2010 to 2011, which makes Paps look brilliant (in a contract year, of course).I did a little research, and calculated WHIP stats for Paps and Mo going back to the first year Papelbon pitched more than 50 innings. Here it is.PAPELBON2006 -- 0.7762007 -- 0.7712008 -- 0.9522009 -- 1.1472010 -- 1.2692011 -- 0.933Rivera2006 -- 0.9602007 -- 1.1222008 -- 0.6652009 -- 0.9052010 -- 0.8332011 -- 0.897While Papelbon is still very good, he isn't the same pitcher who was untouchable in 2007. And something tells me his style of pitching won't age as well as Mo's.We shall see... Best of luck Jonathan.

Those stats are very telling. Papelbon blew some saves when the Sox needed them the most. Game #162 this year is a good example. He threw fastball after fastball and got lit up by the punchless O's. In 2009 in the ALDS the Angels were down by 2 runs in the 9th inning, had 2 outs and couldn't finish them off. As much as he was cheered in Boston, he'll get booed just as bad for his classless exit.

November 16, 2011  11:56 AM ET
QUOTE(#1):

IMO it's time to let him go and replace him with a player like Carlos Beltran, who can DH vs righties and play RF vs lefties. It would give the new manager a lot more flexibility with the everyday line up, and allow him to give everyday players like Youkilis a semi rest by giving him a chance to DH when Beltran is in the field.

I'm torn here. I think the team is better served by not mucking with the chemistry. I'd prefer Papi stay for a few years and bring in Cuddyer as well. They can be the Damon/Millar of a 2012 team. While Beltran is great and adds flexibility, he doesn't solve the "clubhouse funk" problem. This franchise needs less in the way of talent and more in the way of espirit de corp.

IMO...

November 16, 2011  12:10 PM ET
QUOTE(#10):

As much as he was cheered in Boston, he'll get booed just as bad for his classless exit.

Somebody should have taken him aside (per "Nuke" LaLoosh in the movie Bull Durham) and taught him how to speak to the press. The kinds of things he said in Philadelphia concerning why he went there were just... not very wise. He'd have been a lot better off telling the truth (they showed me the money) rather than give this speech about "loyalty." Oye!

I don't fault him. Nobody ever accused the boy of being an intellectual. He's a hired gun - period.

November 16, 2011  12:45 PM ET
QUOTE(#11):

I'm torn here. I think the team is better served by not mucking with the chemistry. I'd prefer Papi stay for a few years and bring in Cuddyer as well. They can be the Damon/Millar of a 2012 team. While Beltran is great and adds flexibility, he doesn't solve the "clubhouse funk" problem. This franchise needs less in the way of talent and more in the way of espirit de corp.IMO...

After last year, chemistry is the one thing thad NEEDS to be mucked with. Last years team had zero chemistry, the old 25 players 25 cabs mentality. From what I've read players like Papi and Youkilis were more of the problem than the solution. The way Papi turned on Tito at the end was just wrong IMO.

November 16, 2011  12:46 PM ET
QUOTE(#12):

Somebody should have taken him aside (per "Nuke" LaLoosh in the movie Bull Durham) and taught him how to speak to the press. The kinds of things he said in Philadelphia concerning why he went there were just... not very wise. He'd have been a lot better off telling the truth (they showed me the money) rather than give this speech about "loyalty." Oye!I don't fault him. Nobody ever accused the boy of being an intellectual. He's a hired gun - period.

Pap is a head-case, and not a very smart one at that.
Most of his media appearances in the last five years have been cringe-worthy. He can't think very clearly, and can't articulate what he's trying to say even if what he is thinking is gibberish.
He may have a couple of decent years with the Phillies, but four or five is unlikely, since his performance has clearly been trending down as he ages, as some of the stats above prove.
Good luck to him, not a bad guy, just a jock who got lucky and is cashing in!
The Red Sox made a good decision in not staying with him.

November 16, 2011  12:49 PM ET

As for Ortiz, the Sox may take him back at the right price since he is well liked in Beantown and may have some production left in him.
A one year deal with an option for another year is a good contract for the Sox; remains to be seen whether Papi will like that, but if other offers don't come too quickly he may get reasonable.

November 16, 2011  01:04 PM ET
QUOTE(#14):

Pap is a head-case, and not a very smart one at that. Most of his media appearances in the last five years have been cringe-worthy. He can't think very clearly, and can't articulate what he's trying to say even if what he is thinking is gibberish.He may have a couple of decent years with the Phillies, but four or five is unlikely, since his performance has clearly been trending down as he ages, as some of the stats above prove.Good luck to him, not a bad guy, just a jock who got lucky and is cashing in! The Red Sox made a good decision in not staying with him.

I'ma little surprised on Red Sox fans turning on Pappelbon now that he's gone. Then again why should I be surprised? This guy was a darn good closer for 6 years in a town and division where that's not an easy thing to do. He helped bring a World Championship in 07, was never hurt, and always took the ball when Tito called on him. He's right, the Red Sox didn't want him anymore, if they did they had plenty of opportunity to keep him. All I can say is good luck Boston trying to find another guy with the ability and mentality to close in that environment. Good luck Paps, Red Sox fans may be feel a little different next year after watching Bard melt down on a regular basis.

November 16, 2011  01:14 PM ET
QUOTE(#16):

I'ma little surprised on Red Sox fans turning on Pappelbon now that he's gone. Then again why should I be surprised? This guy was a darn good closer for 6 years in a town and division where that's not an easy thing to do. He helped bring a World Championship in 07, was never hurt, and always took the ball when Tito called on him. He's right, the Red Sox didn't want him anymore, if they did they had plenty of opportunity to keep him. All I can say is good luck Boston trying to find another guy with the ability and mentality to close in that environment. Good luck Paps, Red Sox fans may be feel a little different next year after watching Bard melt down on a regular basis.

As A Yanks fan i have watched what i considered to be Sox Fans turning on a long list of players, sometimes encouraged by the front office, so i am not surprised.
But I agree with your assessment that they probably should have resigned him, and that he has been a great closer for them. He will probably remain at the same level next year, though his #s will probably improve in Philadelphia.

November 16, 2011  01:14 PM ET
QUOTE(#15):

As for Ortiz, the Sox may take him back at the right price since he is well liked in Beantown and may have some production left in him. A one year deal with an option for another year is a good contract for the Sox; remains to be seen whether Papi will like that, but if other offers don't come too quickly he may get reasonable.

they're talking 2 yrs @ 20M...we'll see

November 16, 2011  01:49 PM ET

Papelbon might not have called the Sox... but you know his Agent did...

Can't wait to her the Fans on ESPN Philly after he makes a couple of leads go away...

 
November 16, 2011  01:51 PM ET

Tough call, love Papi but need youth. I don't think 20M is a good deal for the Sox, Beltran gives more flexability. IMHO

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